Josiah Mackenzie, Vice President | Head of Marketing, Actabl, Interviewed by Rachel Humphrey

Josiah shares how his public speaking journey started with a panel at
a conference years ago. He discusses how his leadership has evolved,
how he develops new skills with each role, and the biggest lessons
he's learned over the past few years. He talks about his curiosity,
including what he was curious about as a child and the things he's
most curious about today, and his advice to his younger self. 

Transcript

Rachel Humphrey: 0:01

I am Rachel Humphrey with It's Personal Stories a Hospitality Podcast. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering personal success in the hospitality industry. And I am very excited to be joined on the program today by Josiah Mackenzie, who needs no further introduction than just that. Josiah, how are you today?

Josiah Mackenzie: 0:21

I'm doing great, Rachel. I am so excited to speak with you. I feel grateful to be here. I love your organization. I love the show. And it's a real treat to be speaking with you here today.

Rachel Humphrey: 0:31

Well, this one has been a long time coming. So we are just going to jump into it now. But for anyone who listens regularly, they know that one of the things I really love about the hospitality industry is that no two paths to leadership are the same. So you can really carve out whatever works for you as an individual. Tell us a little bit about yourself, how who you are, how you got to where you are today, and if you think there were any pivotal moments in that trajectory for you.

Josiah Mackenzie: 0:57

Happy to. I think going way back, my I've been thinking a lot about roots recently and how we're part of people who have come before us and part of a bigger story. And so I think my family story is a mix of my mom's family from the San Francisco Bay Area and my dad's family from Canada. My mom's family were educators. My grandmother had a radio show, her own radio show in the San Francisco area in the 1970s. And so often when I'm podcasting, I'm thinking about her back then. I remember being a kid and seeing her studio and all the mics and the setup. So who knows if that led me to some of the work I do now. But my dad's family co-founded a summer camp in northern Ontario, in Canada. And so I grew up immersed in this environment of engaging the community, storytelling, educating. And I think that was formative for me. I'm the oldest of six kids. So I have five younger siblings. We spent many summers driving back and forth between the San Francisco area where we are living and Northern Ontario. So a lot of time on the road, a lot of time traveling. And I feel like that shaped me into the person that I am today, loving travel, loving seeing new things, going between cultures and different contexts and in very different worlds and enjoying that. And grew up mostly as a kid in San Francisco, then moved to the Midwest. I have always been fascinated by travel and hospitality, largely driven by some of those travels as a kid, but taught myself to code in high school. I was in rural Michigan. So I worked on the Buffalo farm for a little bit and found that was not my path. And so I needed some other way to make a little money and taught myself to code in high school, got involved in the world of technology and software. And one thing led to another. I had the chance to study abroad in Ireland during my college experience. And that opened me up to a new world of travel, got to meet a bunch of hoteliers and innkeepers and stay in a bunch of hostels and meet people from all over the world. So I feel like my story involved a lot of new places, a lot of meeting new people from different walks of life and really enjoying that. And I've had the good fortune throughout my career to work with some very innovative, interesting people and experience different elements of the hospitality ecosystem. And it's been a lot of fun. So I feel like I've learned some things along the way, which I hope we can get to in this conversation in a way that helps our listeners. But it's been a lot of fun so far.

Rachel Humphrey: 3:30

That's incredible how many different touch points. But I am gonna jump right into grandma because while you have worn a lot of hats in the industry, a lot of people watching, listening, my first introduction to you was certainly in your role as podcaster. And one of the things that makes this fun for me, and as I was sharing with you, is sometimes sitting on the other side like you're doing now is both fun but also terrifying. But becoming the number one voice in hospitality, that is no small feat. Now that I know that maybe genetically you had a little bit of an advantage there, talk a little bit about your public speaking path, the road to podcaster for you. Do you have preparation strategies? Do you still get nervous doing it, even for today? Talk a little bit about what you might tell someone who is really afraid to take that first step, whether it's on a panel or as a guest on a podcast or something else.

Josiah Mackenzie: 4:22

So my journey into public speaking actually started at a pretty unexpected place. I, after college, I moved back to northern Michigan, where my parents were at the time. And I was building a business around digital media. And I started blogging just for fun on the side. I was fascinated by travel and hospitality, started this blog called Hotel Marketing Strategies. And this was in the era when social media was starting to be adopted by businesses as a way to interact with customers, listen to what are people saying about my business, totally changed the power dynamic, right? Because until that point, brands and companies had a one-way style of communication where they describe themselves and they're here are the ways that we describe ourselves, here's how we want our brand to be perceived and social media and user-generated content, of course, changed all that. So I was blogging about this. And the great thing about creating things and putting them on the internet is there's a global audience of people you can interact with. And one of those people, one of the readers I had at the time, was the organizer of a conference in Italy and in Florence. And so I remember getting an email. And I was I was 20 at the time. I had to take a little break from college, and I got this email, and I had never done any public speaking in my life at all. And I found it pretty terrifying because I was introverted, and that's like the scariest, least exciting thing possible. But also sounded exciting because this conference was in Italy. I wanted to go to Italy, and I was really excited about this topic of how is social media changing travel and hospitality. But again, no, no experience at all. So what I ended up doing is I joined a local Toastmasters. So it's an organization, I think it's an international organization, a lot of local meetups. And I remember the first one I went into, I think I had about 10 people. It has people at varying levels of experience, but they all want to get better at public speaking. And the warm-up exercise was to do a three-minute impromptu speech. And I totally bombed that because I was hoping to just sit back and listen and try to get some tips, but they just threw you right in there. And so I felt very embarrassed and I felt like this is probably not going to work for me, but I really wanted to participate in this event. And so I stuck with that group. I had about three months to prepare, and I prepared some remarks and some slides and things like that. And then every day I spent at least 30 minutes practicing, just talking to myself in the mirror, talking to myself walking around like a lunatic. But I was, I really wanted to try to know the material inside and out. And I thought if I knew that, I could probably get up on stage and share. And I ended up doing it. I think it went okay. I really do not want to go back and look at a recording of that. But what happened in that moment, I think was it kind of showed me that if you care enough about what you're doing and you try to make it about something bigger than you, I think I would have been terrified to the point of being paralyzed and doing nothing if this was about me and this was my presentation and my moment in the spotlight. I tried to make it about, hey, I'm seeing some things that I think the people in the audience are going to learn from, hopefully find interesting, bring a perspective here. And so that helped me then. I think that's helped me since then in various public speaking environments. And so to the other part of your question, do I still feel nervous? Absolutely. I feel like podcasting is honestly very easy. And it's something I'd recommend our listeners do if they have an opportunity to appear on a podcast. It's a great way to get started to prepare and build your confidence and your ability to communicate. And I still feel that kind of rush before whether it's recording today. I know I've had the chance to get to know you over the years, but you still feel that. And I don't think that ever goes away. And I I personally feel it more if it's uh if it's on a stage and in a big room, you can feel all the attention on you, but you can focus really who am I here to serve and how do I make this a good experience for them? I found for me that's helped me.

Rachel Humphrey: 8:20

That's interesting because one of the things I love about that is normally if you're invited to speak at an event, the person who is inviting you already thinks you have something to add to the conversation. And so I think if we can get out of our own way a little bit and think, okay, it's not do I have value? Somebody who's good at their job thinks that I do. Now, how do I present what I know to the people, knowing who's in the audience, knowing what your conference is about, those type of things. But I use a similar strategy of, okay, it's not as much about me, it's about whatever I'm going to provide to the audience. And I like the little bit of nerves or the little bit of anxiety, even talking with you today, because I think that it makes me make sure that I am prepared or that I am excited for it or fresh with it. I want to jump from public speaking to leadership because one of the really interesting things I've learned on this podcast is there seems to be two schools of people. People that were like, I am born to lead. I knew from a young age I was going to be in a role of leadership. And then you've got the other side, which is, I'm not sure I'm a leader today. A lot of questioning. How did I get here? Do you think you fall into one of those camps of at some point you thought you would have a role like you do, very influential in the hospitality industry now?

Josiah Mackenzie: 9:35

It's a good question. I have experienced, I feel, all the feelings along that spectrum because I had, I feel like I had a very unconventional childhood and then young adult life and early career. And I feel like I've always been the outsider in some perspective. I think whether it's going between different cultures of rural Canada and San Francisco, or I feel like every environment I was kind of like everyone I was around was in the loop on something I wasn't in. My mom was a teacher and then she ended up homeschooling us. And I think that had advantages. I think the disadvantage is I always felt like my friends were like having this experience I wasn't having. And then I did college in a sort of unconventional way, took some breaks, I started a business in school, which I learned some things. But I think the downside to that is I I did not, I was not in as part of a bigger organization where I think I was learning things. And if I could do it over, I probably would do that over, that piece of it over. But all that does say, I think I my parents were very supportive, which I'm very grateful for. But I think being the oldest of six, five younger siblings, I think often just in the family dynamic is that I was, I think the way they communicated and the way I was trying to take care of my younger siblings was that I they were playing up that, hey, I'm a leader, this is who you are. And again, I'm very grateful for that. And I feel fortunate for that. I think the part that I've had to work through is that disconnect maybe between kind of what I thought I was ready for and what I actually was ready for, and stepping into environments where reality didn't really match my expectations. And so I think I've hopefully learned some humility. I'm still trying to, in terms of like I've always wanted to lead, but I think if I'm very honest, I think that was coming out of pride or arrogance. And I think I've been trying to root the way I think about leadership in something that is not about me and is about the people I'm working with and hopefully serving. I think you made a really good point earlier around like in the context of public speaking, thinking about a conference organizer seeing some value in you. And so I think on my journey, I've felt imposter syndrome a lot. And I felt that, hey, I don't deserve to be in this room or I don't deserve to have this role. And what I found useful, and I'm still trying to navigate this, but I think what I have found useful is what you mentioned and the root of that, whereas somebody at some point thought that you could add something to the mix here. And so if I for my time in this room in this meeting, or my time in this role, how can I use this position, this role, what have you as a way to help the people around me create more opportunities for them and be in service to people around you. And again, focus less on this being about my moment and more about however I got here, how do I use this for others?

Rachel Humphrey: 12:25

That's interesting because I use that strategy of some conference organizer thinks that I have value to add to overcome my own imposter syndrome of am I in this? And I look at the other people that are on stage and in the room, and somehow I don't see myself in the caliber that they all are. So that is absolutely a mechanism that I use to both calm my anxiety, but also to because if you walk out on stage and you don't feel like you belong, that is going to come across in how you present. One of the interesting things that you were touching on, actually, is how leadership really is an evolution and you're growing into and learning from. And I love that it starts as a leader of the captain of the siblings, if you will, to what you're doing today. If you think about the last year, for instance, and your leadership evolution, what is one of the biggest lessons you've learned in the last year and how will that shape your leadership moving forward?

Josiah Mackenzie: 13:16

Yeah, I think I I don't know if the last year is the best way to frame it for me from what I'm about to say, but I think over the last several years, I've seen a lot of different perspectives on leadership. And I think you might see this if you're listening to the archives of this show. If you read leadership books, there's all kinds of different perspectives. And I think for a long time I was trying to make sense of that and understand, okay, if there's all these different perspectives, some of them feel conflicting, what's the right one? Right. And I think what I'm learning is there could be different paths to leading effectively. There could be something, and I've seen this over the last year and in the in recent years, where if you dig into the parts of yourself and your story and your experiences that are authentic to you and you aim to serve out of that place, then it can be useful. I think in in the recent past, I've had different perspectives from different people that seem to conflict from with the way that I think about leadership. And I don't know if they are objectively wrong, but I think what could also be true is there's this opportunity to lead from a perspective that is attempting to bring the best out of people. I I think there's different, I've worked for different leaders in different organizations where there's varying levels of I guess like severity or accountability towards, hey, you have to drive performance. And I think that is true for any organization, is that need to drive outcomes. I think the way that you drive outcomes as a leader, I have found highly effective leaders drive those outcomes in very different ways. So I guess what I'm trying to say is there could be an opportunity to think about how are you wired, what are your experiences, how do you engage with people in an authentic way and still drive to those outcomes, but do it in a way that feels aligned with who you are and who the other person is that you're interacting with.

Rachel Humphrey: 15:06

I think that authentic leadership is a really interesting concept because not only in your leadership evolution, but really in the evolution of the concept of leadership in general. I think that a lot of people, myself included, are probably finding themselves on the same path of you will be a better leader if it comes from your core and who you are and what your strengths are. And I can't lead like you or other people that I have really wanted to emulate over time. I want to turn to also though, what shapes part of that leadership. You've actually talked a little bit about humbling yourself a little bit. And this is actually the first time I've ever asked this on this show, but I'm interested if you have ever received feedback that came as a, I'm gonna say negative, maybe not positive feedback, that came as a surprise to you. You were not expecting it. And I'm wondering if you remember a situation where maybe how you reacted, how your manager or your leader, whoever was providing the feedback, reacted, because I always say that feedback is a gift, but I also know it can be a little jarring when we hear something that we're not expecting, but the opportunity to also grow from that.

Josiah Mackenzie: 16:15

Yeah, man, so many. I'm trying to boil it down to one. I think it feels uncomfortable. I'm just riffing off what you're saying. It feels uncomfortable because like people want, or maybe it's just me. I want to feel good. I want to feel like I'm doing the right thing all the time. I am acting out of what I believe is right. So I think when someone brings to my attention that I could be doing something wrong, it is it's it's jarring, right? It doesn't feel pleasant. And at the same time, you know, as you pointed out, it it is a gift, right? It's a gift because I think that is the best way to learn in my experience. And so I think both in large ways and in small, I think whether it is how I'm interacting, whether it is how I'm showing up, whether it's how I'm communicating, I feel like there's so many times where the story that's been going on in my head is different from the reality, at least that is being reflected in this feedback I'm receiving. But I think that's where I think for all our listeners, orienting around feedback being a gift, because it's also, I think, one of the most formative ways to learn and grow and evolve and level up as a leader because there are there's so many benefits to reading books. I think to look listening to amazing shows like this one, you have like an incredible opportunity to hear from people. But what you miss in some of those one-sided communications is like, how are you lining up? And I think that is a beautiful thing. I also think it's increasingly valuable. I think there, I've seen different people. I've poked around with this a little bit, but different ways of using AI to coach and things like that. I think at its worst, AI or at its most dangerous, potentially, some AI coaching can be very sycophantic and very much just like telling you how great you are. And I think that is one of the beautiful elements of a human relationship, is things that feel uncomfortable. It's also where you grow the most. And so I would suggest that in an increasingly AI-driven world, this is actually one of the most beautiful things and the things to lean into because that's how you're going to improve.

Rachel Humphrey: 18:11

I love that. As you are changing roles, changing careers, change getting promoted within companies, oftentimes we encounter an actual day-to-day skill, not a leadership quality that maybe we haven't learned in school or we haven't learned in the role before it, but it becomes increasingly um recognizable that we're going to need to develop this for success in the current role. Have you had that experience? And if so, how did you identify the skill? And then where do you turn to really develop and grow that new skill?

Josiah Mackenzie: 18:48

I it's a great question. I think one of the, I'm thinking back to a moment I had in a few roles ago, a few companies ago, where I was working in an environment where all of my direct reports were older than me and more experienced and more talented in their respective areas. As I was promoted into this, leading this organization, that I was excited to have the promotion. But I think if I was really honest with myself, I was excited for the role and the title as opposed to the actual work and the opportunity. And so I remember talking with my boss at the time and also my direct reports, it was an interesting situation because it was peers that became my direct reports. And again, like they just had more experience. I think what the new skill that I had to develop, and I'm still trying to learn what this looks like, is you go through evolutions as you step into areas of increasing responsibility where it's a different skill set. And I think you often get promoted because you're really good at the craft or whatever the thing is, and then you level up in leadership, and there's a whole new skill set, right? It's not necessarily knowing that there's still value to knowing these different areas so you can have productive conversations with your team, but it's a different exercise. So, what I found useful in that moment when I was promoted into that role is recognizing, hey, these former peers who are now my direct reports, I respect a lot, credible track record of performance. What I'm going to need to do to be effective and to help them is to understand from each of them what do they need to do their jobs as effectively as possible. And then just at a fundamental level, how do I make their life better? Both in terms of is there, are there things that are frustrating we might be able to clear up? Are there things that are blocking you doing your best work that we can remove? And then being an advocate, I think, for them, for the work that they're doing to the people I was reporting to. And then vice versa, and also helping the people I was reporting to have a sense of what's going on the front lines of these different areas that I had responsibility for. So it was a total change. I think spent most of my career in marketing and commercial leadership roles. And you can learn one little element of this. I think this is true for any part of an organization or a business, but you get really good at that thing. And then you often get promoted, but you need to learn a new set of skills to be effective in that new role that you're in and to continue to advance your journey.

Rachel Humphrey: 21:04

It's interesting because part of what I'm hearing from that and from my experience when I started leading operations is learning also really the skill of asking and then listening to what people are saying. Because very often we think we know what someone is going to need to be successful, or maybe it's what we would have needed in that role, but taking the time and carving it out to actually ask the question and then listening to what others have to say there. No, I think that's great. When we talk about curiosity, I am always intrigued by when I get asked on a podcast, what is the thing you hear most often on its personal stories? It's always how curiosity has driven a lot of careers in our industry. Would you define yourself as a curious person and what is something you're curious about today? And it can be hospitality or not related.

Josiah Mackenzie: 21:53

I definitely would. I don't know if I was bored this way, but I remember being a little kid and my mom, she's a teacher, she loved learning in education. And I think she she kept telling me that you're not, there's no such thing as being bored. You're just a boring person if you get bored and you have to you need to find something that interests you. So I think I got that hammered in my head. I like that. Um and so I think one way or another, I don't know if it's nature versus nurture, but one way or other, I think I felt I started digging into all these different areas. I was fascinated by the sciences as a kid. Like I would do these deep dives into obscure things that are just weird for a kid. Like I was super into bird watching and I would listen to these CDs of bird calls and then go out into the woods and try to. Which in retrospect, I'm like, what was I thinking? And like, would that's just such a weird ask for a kid to get uh a whole day to do a deep death. All that to say, I think I've always been fascinated by things and I've tried to find things that make me curious. I think following curiosity makes life more interesting in the context of work. I think it also makes you more interesting and valuable at work because if you can be interested enough, you're more likely to learn more and you're more likely to, you know, take that knowledge of what you're learning, teach others, level up the people around you. So I've tried to not only cultivate that, but to follow that curiosity. And I think what I find myself very fascinated about right now is some of the sort of like second or third order implications of AI and I think going beyond looking for efficiency, but to say, hey, what does this mean with regards to how leadership evolves or how we do our work, not necessarily in the tactical stuff, but how does this change culture and communication and trying to experiment with that? We can talk about that if you want, but I feel like I'm I'm very interested to see where this all goes.

Rachel Humphrey: 23:58

Is there a tie-in between bird watching and AI?

Josiah Mackenzie: 24:01

I think the tie-in might be I want to cultivate and bring back my interest in bird watching. I will say I've let that lapse over the last 30, 35 years, but I I think the I I think I'm extremely interested in what is real now. I think there's so much synthetic information, entertainment, quote unquote knowledge. And I think there's a certain element of bird watching where you're like very observant and you're like, is it this or that? I don't know. This might be too much of a stretch, but that's what comes up for me.

Rachel Humphrey: 24:37

We'll do part two of this next year, and you can tell me where you've landed on the connection there. One of the biggest aspects of my own journey the last few years, especially, is really a renewed focus on self-care and wellness. And I'm not certainly alone in that. I'm curious for you if that's something that's important to you in your career and leadership right now, whether that's always been the case. You would uh have any advice, whether it be for direct reports or other people in the industry, that especially in this one, which is on the go, what feels like 24-7, about how to make sure that they are taking care of themselves.

Josiah Mackenzie: 25:16

It's so important. I think I've had an increased appreciation for that as years go by and I work in different roles. And candidly across different roles, I see a lot of individuals that seem to be burning themselves out and then and then get fired or something else happens. And I guess I don't see a correlation between overwork and burning yourself out and necessarily accelerating in in your career. And I see, like I'm thinking of a couple of parents in in my work life who have more responsibility than I do. I don't know if kids now, but they are highly effective. And I think I'm very interested in that. I don't think I'm above this because I think for the vast majority of my career, I have worked almost around the clock. And I think it's been to my detriment. I think I'm trying to think of an honest way to answer this because I think out of school when I was young and I didn't have responsibilities. I don't know if there's ever a good time. I think if there was a good time, potentially it would have been when I was very young and I was trying to accelerate learning. But I uh even then, I don't even know if that is a good time because what happens is for myself, what happened is what was lost is building friendships and relationships that I think make you a better person, including at work. And I so I don't, I think these worlds are very interconnected. And so I think more recently it's just been brought to my attention where it's like these people who are working around the clock and sacrificing their personal life, their family life, their friendships, other elements of themselves, and then it still doesn't work out for their career. So you're like, you know, what then? And then I also see people on the other side of it who do seem to be investing in nourishing themselves. And uh so I don't know, I think it's a great question, Rachel. I think what's been fascinating for me recently is, you know, I talked to a lot of people on the on my podcast and elsewhere, and this notion of kind of soul has come up again and again from like people from all different walks of life. So I'm have my radar up around what's happening here. Is I think whatever digging into this right now as we're recording, I feel like in the last couple of months, I'm trying to understand like what does that look like for me? I think I'm a Christian and I've been digging more into like my faith as like that idea of like soul care. But I think whatever your kind of background or your belief system is, and whatever you want to call that kind of like inner part of you, like what does it look like to fill that up or fill up your battery, like whatever analogy you want to use? I feel like there's something there. And I'm actively exploring this because I'm curious and I find when I do explore that, I think I'm better at work, I think I'm better for the people around me. So I would love to keep exploring this.

Rachel Humphrey: 27:50

You raise some really great points. One is that self-care and wellness means different things to different people. It can be physical exercise, it can be nourishing time with friendships and other relationships, it can be parenting, it can be having some sort of balance or harmony outside of career. And I think that is a really important point. Maybe that doesn't come to all of us initially, but the other is what you were saying about how much stronger or better you end up in your career when you are nourishing that. I say fuel in the lantern. Like to shine brightly, you have to have fuel in that lantern. And I think that nourishment from whatever source it comes from actually makes us stronger and not less effective if we take the time to devote to it. Just I know we were gonna run out of time, and now I have a million things I want to ask you and not enough time to do. So I'm gonna wrap up with the two, my two favorites. One, I we've talked a lot about evolution and growth and these other things. And I think that's why I love this question particularly so much, is part of evolving is reflection. And where did we come from and what have we done differently? You talk about how you've really evolved as a leader. So as you sit here today, if I were to pick Josiah, who I'll pick Ireland, Josiah, as a time frame. What would you tell that young man, either about how things turned out for you or some nugget of advice that might have helped you make your path a little bit different or a little bit easier for you?

Josiah Mackenzie: 29:19

That's a great question. I I would love to go back and tell my younger self to stress a little bit less, and it's all gonna work out. I feel incredibly grateful for some of the opportunities I've had and the people I've had to had a chance to work with, and the people in my personal life who have just been such great friends. And I think I operated out of a lot of anxiety and nervous energy for a lot of my life. And so I think that's one piece. I think the other would be a little bit of what we were talking about earlier around there's some incredible organizations, both in the world of hospitality and beyond, that are have great leaders, incredible cultures, are doing really good things. And I came from this family of a lot of entrepreneurship and. I think I learned some stuff starting projects and businesses and stuff, but there's a lot of value, I think, especially early in your career to work alongside some great teammates and a great organization with a really good culture. And so if I would have done something differently, I think I would have probably taken that path. But I think however you get there, trying to enjoy the process and learn from people you're working with and try to be a positive force in the environments you find yourself.

Rachel Humphrey: 30:25

No, that's great advice. If you think about its personal stories, our motto of empowering personal success, you've shared a lot of great advice already today. Is there any final piece of either from your experience or your insights that you want to share with our audience?

Josiah Mackenzie: 30:42

My my final advice, this is I maybe this is the marketer in me, Rachel, but to go back and listen to the It's Personal Archive, it is insane. If you think about the opportunity, I think before you started the show and what you and David and the team are were building, it would have been crazy if you think about the conversations, the stories, the insights that are available. A lot of this in the past was like, oh, you have to know somebody. Maybe you get 30 seconds with interacting with a leader and you hope they share some advice with you. It's insane because you go back and listen to this personal archive and you have hours and hours of really deep dive, thoughtful conversations with the real stories of leaders in our industry and beyond who are doing great things. But you hear how they got there. And I find for myself, and I think for many of our listeners that might maybe they're just tuning into this one for the first time, go back, check out the archive because I think that is one of the most powerful ways to learn and to level up. And I think what you and the team have built is really extraordinary.

Rachel Humphrey: 31:39

I could not appreciate that more. And it feels like a perfect segue to say to all our listeners. We know you have a lot of ways to spend your time, but if you've enjoyed your time today, we hope you'll head over to it'spersonalstories.com to hear from, as Josiah mentioned, over 250 other industry leaders who have likewise shared their personal journeys and the insights that they've learned along the way. One of the reasons I love this so much is providing uh barrier-free access to our industry's really impactful leadership in a way that you mentioned we may not otherwise get to have. So I appreciate that very much. I appreciate all you do for the industry. I appreciate having gotten to know you a little bit over the last couple of years and really appreciate you joining me today. So thank you so much, Josiah, for joining us.

Josiah Mackenzie: 32:25

Thank you, Rachel. This is a lot of fun.

Rachel Humphrey: 32:27

Thanks so much.