It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Brian Hicks, CEO HSMAI interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

• David Kong

Share episode

Dorothy Dowling interviews Brian Hicks, CEO of the Hospitality Sales and Marketing Association International. They discuss Brian's career journey, the importance of intentional career paths, effective team leadership, the significance of networking, and the evolving landscape of technology and innovation in the hospitality industry.

“Understand your personal purpose—know where you add the most value—and invest deeply in relationships. Connections may open doors, but it’s the relationships you nurture that will shape your career.” – Brian Hicks, CEO, HSMA

Dorothy Dowling:

Greetings. I am Dorothy Dowling, and welcome to its Personal Stories, a hospitality podcast dedicated to empowering professionals Through the lived experiences of inspire inspiring industry leaders, this is a platform for learning, leadership, and personal transformation. Today I am honored to be joined by Brian Hicks, CEO of the Hospitality Sales and Marketing Association International, an organization dedicated to growing business for hotels. Their partners through education, insights, and community. Brian, welcome to the show. It's delightful to have you.

Brian Hicks:

Thank you so much, Dorothy. It's a pleasure to be here and thank you very much for inviting me.

Dorothy Dowling:

Wonderful. Brian, I hope we can just get started right at the beginning of your career and have you shape or start with what inspired your journey into the hospitality industry.

Brian Hicks:

Sure. I I'm one of the few people in the hotel industry that actually knew I wanted to go into the hotel industry at a very early age. My, I was blessed growing up, being able to travel quite a bit with my parents to local, local destinations, but also a few international destinations that just really sparked travel in me. And it was something that I just. I got that bug very early on, and then I had the, was in a couple of really just beautiful hotels and just when you walk in the doors of, some amazing properties, you just get this sense of awe. And I had that sense very early on. And I just knew that this was gonna be an industry that was gonna welcome me because you look across the industry, it's such a diverse group of people that really attracted me as well. And just the idea of travel and being able to go to new places, experience new things, new foods, new cultures, et cetera. Even within the United States. It didn't have to be international, but just new destinations. So I yeah, I got very lucky and this is all I've ever done my entire career, which I, there's, I think there's very few people these days that can say that as well. But I when I had an opportunity to go to university my parents said, we understand you want to go into hotels, but maybe you should just get a general business degree first and then go from there. So I took their advice, which you normally do when you're 17 or 18 years old. And I did that for a couple years and realized, no, I I want to go into hotel schools. So I transferred over after two years, completed my degree from University of Wisconsin Stout in, in hotel management and never looked back. It's it's just something that's attracted me my entire career and best decision I could have ever made.

Dorothy Dowling:

You know something, Brian, I think you're one of the few people that we have interviewed that you have had an intentional path to the hospitality industry. Most are accidental, exactly right. Yep. I think that's incredible. I'm just wondering if we can dig a little deeper and have you share some of the most defining moments in your career that really helped shape your leadership journey and how you approach problem solving.

Brian Hicks:

Absolutely there, there are quite a few defining moments I've had in typical hotel career where I've moved around a lot and I've worked for, a number of different companies. There were a few kind of key moments though in my career. One was my internship that was part of my university degree with Hyatt Hotels. I went to Hilton Head Island. There were probably 30 other interns there at the time. A great group of people. Some of them are still in the industry, very few, but some, but I took the opportunity there to really focus on getting the best out of that experience. And one of the things that I did was instead of rotating through the typical housekeeping front desk restaurant, I actually stayed in housekeeping my entire nine months that I had my internship. And what that allowed me was the opportunity to get. Supervisory experience in that role since I was staying there for almost nine months, and then when I graduated. I was looking for, looking for a job like everybody is. And the fact that I had that supervisory experience actually was a big part of how I was able to land a Junior Housekeeping manager role. With the Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company, and that was just an ama. I looked at what my other friends, the roles that they were getting, many of them were entry level, maybe management training, and I had a solid salaried position right outta university. But I took a chance and I really did take that chance to say, you know what? I'm gonna focus on where am I gonna get the most value in terms of my career and my steps. And the Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company was absolutely a defining moment in my career. I spent over six years there at their flagship property at the time, which is in Buckhead, Atlanta. And the corporate office was attached. This was pre, I'm dating myself, but this was pre Marriott involvement in any way, shape, or form. And, it was an amazing learning experience, such a great focus on the guest service aspect growing your managerial skills, leadership skills and that was just an incredible experience. And definitely a defining moment in my career to be able to grow and just really developed. And then from there I joined IHG after about six years with Ritz Carlton, and I had over 26 years with IHG. And one of my defining moments there was when I had the opportunity to go overseas and work out of the London office and oversee revenue management for not only Europe, but also for Asia and part of the Middle East. I'd been in. Commercial operations for many years. Thought I knew it all felt really confident going into, a new territory, a new region. But man, you get, you learn very quickly how much you don't know about. Global other regions, some of the challenges there. So it is, yeah, it's a big, it's a big deal and was definitely a defining moment. And I spent close to seven years throughout Europe, Asia, middle East, and absolutely crafted my career and certainly gave me an edge in terms of next steps throughout my career.

Dorothy Dowling:

I love both of those stories, Brian, because I, it's, it sounds to me like even as a student, you were very intentional about shaping your career and, really thinking about how to enter the industry with some substance behind you. So I, I think that's a really important message for our audience. I also. Really do love the way you define your international journey.'cause I too have had some of those experiences and I do think we often find what we don't know when we land into those places. And it, it really is incredibly impactful to be immersed in different cultures and learn from others and have them really help shape your both, your intellectual and your leadership journey. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about, because obviously in the role that you're in now and certainly roles you've had before, you've had a very demanding travel schedule. You've worked with global partners, of course, which all have different stakeholders, all with different needs and expectations. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you maintain your personal energy and balance for yourself and for the people that you're leading.

Brian Hicks:

Yeah, that's a great question and it is something that I don't think enough executives focus on specifically towards their team. I have some great ways to, decompress myself personally. I love the outdoors. I love getting out on water. I'm a huge music fan, so you know, I look forward to the next big concert or festival that's coming up. I think that personally for me, I always have to have a trip. Or a festival or something planned. And as long as it's in the calendar I know that time is coming and you almost work towards it, right? You kind of work towards keeping your energy levels at the right pace and working towards it. But one of the absolute keys to my success has been my focus on my team members and focus on people and understanding where they are and really questioning them. When is your next vacation? When is your next time to recharge? And having that empathy to know that, sometimes if somebody's having, a bad day, just give them a break and let it go and re you know, re restart that conversation at a different time. And I think, post COD we've seen more and more challenges in that space and I think having a bit more empathy, but. Being very deliberate in asking those questions. Sometimes we just assume everybody's okay unless we hear something right. But if you can really keep a pulse on your team to see where their energies are leading them, I think that absolutely will make somebody's career so much easier. And it just gives you such a better sense of what you could push onto the team. And when do you need to back off and when can you really start to, to really drive the team knowing that everybody's. Energized and everybody's ready to go. That has a big impact on the overall organization's success.

Dorothy Dowling:

I do think that focus on your team's health and really trying to have that personalized approach to leadership. I, I just heard this brilliant speaker at GBTA this week that was talking about the CEOs of today and tomorrow. That understanding of being an empathetic leader and being highly tuned to their team's needs is really the ones that are gonna power us into the future. I appreciate you sharing that, Brian, and also the understanding that you have to think about each individual in terms of what do they need, because everyone has different things that energize them. But that focus on teamwork I think is critical for all leaders today. So thank you for sharing that. I agree. I wonder if we can talk a little about networks now because you've obviously been engaged throughout your career, and I would love for you to share how professional networks and your industry relationships have really. Shaped your growth opened doors, and how do you advise others to really cult, cultivate those kinds of meaningful connections?

Brian Hicks:

The term networking, right? It gets thrown around a lot. And I think as an industry. We're probably on the top end of networking, right? We're a hospitality org, industry, we like talk. You don't get into this industry if you don't like talking to people. If you do, you're in the wrong industry. So I think, those connections are great. I think taking it to the next level with a very tight group of individuals is what has been very effective for me in terms of networking. I have a very small group, about five individuals that I connect with on a regular basis, and you build that trust over time. And while they may not be experts in my industry, some of them have just been longtime friends they know me well enough to be able to help guide some and give some good advice and give some good direction as to how to maybe tackle some of the challenges that are ahead. But in that same vein. Networking within this industry is how people are getting ahead, and that just seems to be a common trend that has been around forever, but I think it's back these days as there's a little bit of skepticism around some of the technology that's out there to drive, whether it be driving to try to find a new position, trying to find assistance, trying to find just, colleagues to help out. That networking side of those personal relationships and those personal interactions are so much more important today. And if you think about the future of AI and being able to put out. A personalized video directly to me from a hotel company, but I know instantaneously that it, it was completely AI generated. I think that has a place, right? But if it's going, if it needs to go to that next level. That's not gonna cut it. And I actually think that's actually going to drive more networking and more personal interactions within our industry because we do crave that and people want that face-to-face. They want that engagement. So staying engaged with. The right people and is really critical I think, to this next generation and even, people that have been around for a while wanting to grow their career. And in that same vein, I think for somebody who is just starting out trying to build their network. You need to find places where you're comfortable and find places where you feel that you are going to gain something, that there's going to be people of similar interests that you have. And hopefully that would be something that you would definitely be attracted to. You would start to see similar people have similar aspirations and they would really start to then grow their network and grow their career in that sense.

Dorothy Dowling:

Yeah, no I think that's extremely well articulated. And I do think, HSM ai, the organization that you lead, really affords people that ability to build a lot of those relationships and, find mentors that hopefully can power their careers?

Brian Hicks:

A absolutely. We were talking earlier about Bob Gilbert, the former CEO of H-S-M-A-I, and when I've known Bob for a number of years before he passed, he was such an amazing individual. And when I think about the number of careers that he has touched and has driven and has grown in his role in H-S-M-A-I it's astounding. Even people that have been out of the industry for many years comment on how much Bob really, changed their trajectory, changed their career, and really inspired them. And if I could bring just a fraction of what Bob has brought to the organization in terms of the networking opportunities and building individual's careers, I will feel extremely grateful.

Dorothy Dowling:

Yeah, no I share that perspective on Bob, Brian, and I appreciate you saluting him the way you have, because I do think he's been very special to many of us and has had a profound impact on many careers and just people's understanding of, how to approach some of their challenges in their existing jobs. So thank you for that at tribute. Absolutely. I am wondering if we can talk a little bit about problem solving because I know that revenue management is a science, and I'm just wondering when you are counseling others in terms of complex challenges that they might be facing how do you guide them in terms of getting to root causes if they aren't immediately clear? Is there any advice you have for our audience?

Brian Hicks:

I spent most of my career in revenue management and I am a absolute data junkie. Data-driven approach to problem solving is my first step. It always has been. And that comes with its own challenges because you can't always trust the data. You can't make decisions based a hundred percent on data. Always like to use the example of you see some challenges in the data, but what you don't understand is that the hotel down the street had a flood and just took out a hundred rooms out of their inventory. There are other elements to just taking a data-driven, a approach to problem solving, but that, that needs to be the first step. Absolutely needs to be the first step in identifying how to summarize the problem. How to really see where the key issues are, understand the environment understand if there's any kind of economic, political or anything else that's shaping some of those challenges to really get to the bottom of it. Next step for me is really, I am a collaborator. And in this industry there are so many experts in different areas. If you're not listening to those other expertise areas you're only gonna get a fraction of the picture. So really thinking about who do you want to bring into that conversation, bringing those individuals in. Listening, always being the last to speak is my kind of motto, especially if I'm bringing in my team. I'm not. I don't wanna plant any biases. I don't wanna plant any, conclusions. I want them to really start to think about what the issues are and bring them up. I really push people to speak up in those environments as well. And then the last of it, which is really just breaking down any kind of silos or any kind of lack of collaboration between team members. Because there again, that can also be something that'll hinder the true picture. If you have two individuals that might be coming at it and not sharing a hundred percent of what their knowledge base is and almost keeping things to their chest, and that seems to drive drive people. It drives me, Matt. It is. It's just something that I can't deal with. That's really the three approaches that I take to really trying to solve, complex issues and get to a solution.

Dorothy Dowling:

I love that framing of starting with data but not being exclusively focused on the data. Brian. And I also love that aspect of bringing others in because I do think bringing diverse opinions is always healthy for us to hopefully see through some of those blind spots. And then I do think that forcing of individuals to actually step up and not just. You shape that direction of that decision. I think that's a really powerful message to leaders because that's a hard thing to do sometimes to sit back and let others speak first. So I appreciate you sharing that. I will tell you the speaker on Monday that spoke at you Pate, spoke exactly about that skillset. Excellent. So thank. Thank you. Good. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about communication, because obviously that's a really important leadership skill. You have a awful lot of opportunities or challenging engagements that are put before you. I'm just wondering what you have learned about connecting with an audience whether it's a small group of executives or getting up on a big stage. If there's anything that you would like to share with our listeners.

Brian Hicks:

I think preparation is the key. It's been the key to my success. I enjoy speaking in front of people, but it's also something that I know has to constantly be crafted and it's something that I'm constantly working on. I've seen people that have started off their careers where they've been put into a position where they have to do a lot of speaking and maybe they're speaking at a board meeting, maybe they're speaking to a large audience. And they really struggled because it's a natural part of your career progression, and if you're not prepared for it, it can really step you back and really, I, and I had an opportunity, I think very early on in my career where I did step into a boardroom and was put on the spot. And I did not do well. I I started shaking. It was I really knew at that point that this is not gonna go well. So I I took that learning to really ensure that I was prepared and, we've talked about imposter syndrome and what have you, but. Instead of having that idea of that imposter syndrome, I would take the approach of I know what I know and I know it well, and I may not have all the answers, and I'm not gonna go in there and start to make things up or try to answer questions that I'm not prepared for. But I am going to share all that I know all that I'm prepared to speak, and that builds a bit of confidence when you're talking to a large audience or a small audience. And I think, in the hospitality industry, you have a lot of mini pro, mini issues that pop up on a regular basis, like these really mini fires. And you have to take the same approach, go in with what you know assume, assume nothing and just really start to find out what the all the issues are. Bring your knowledge, bring everything, be prepared as possible. But you have to be open to, you have to have an open mind going into a lot of those things. But in terms of public speaking, it's something that again, I enjoy doing, but I know I have got to prepare. And I know I have a long way to go. I. Always trying to hone that craft. Because it is important in this industry, it's important in my role, it's important for communication and what I'm doing today. So if I can't relate to individuals in the audience they're just gonna shut down, right? They're not gonna listen and you're not gonna get your message across, and that's the key.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think that whole mindset of preparing and I do appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing, in an early career moment where things didn't go well, Brian, because I do think that's important for leaders too. Share some of their failures too, because I think a lot of people feel like leaders just never had any bad things happen to them. Yeah. And they do afford us, pretty powerful learning opportunities. But I also share your perspective that preparation is the only thing that we can do in terms of. Making sure that we do the best to control the outcomes and making everyone have a good experience. And I do think many underestimate the time and effort it takes to truly be prepared. So I appreciate you. Yeah. Reinforcing that message, not to wing it and to really be very purposeful in, in, and intentional. And when you're in front of an audience,

Brian Hicks:

You're gonna be put on the spot. And so many times without throughout your career in executive roles. So make sure the ones where you have an opportunity to prepare for you do, because you're, you are gonna get caught off guard at other times. You don't want that to happen all the time.

Dorothy Dowling:

A hundred percent. Brian, I think extraordinarily well said. I wonder if we can talk a little bit about commercial leadership and hospitality, because, I think you and I both would say that the hospitality industry has been. Very often viewed as a very traditional industry. I do think it is on the edge of very significant transformation. I think many are speaking to that. I'm just wondering what you see some of the greatest opportunities for innovation in our industry in the next three to five years.

Brian Hicks:

I think it's. An extremely exciting time to be within the commercial discipline. We, you're right, we've always been viewed as a very traditional kind of, revenue Management was very simple in most people's eyes. Sales was pretty straightforward. Marketing was pretty. Common and just there was a script that everybody used and just went in that direction. When you think about a couple of elements, number one, the technology side is just going to catch up to us so fast and we will not be ready. I guarantee you we never are for big technology changes in our industry because we are usually slow to react to technology. I think this time is gonna catch up to us really quick, so we have to be ready for. For that it is gonna be here. In that same vein, when you think about the different disciplines of the commercial umbrella. Ensuring that there is a hundred percent transparency across those disciplines, and that everybody has at least a minor understanding of what the other elements of the commercial umbrella are, what's happening that communication is going to have to be expounded by 10 for companies that are going to succeed and be able to then compliment their strategies with these commercial technology changes that are coming very quickly. The other area where I think we need to really focus as an industry is our agility. We are not very agile as a industry. It takes us a while to move the needle on many things. The world is moving extremely fast and these dynamics, these market dynamics are moving even faster. There's been a few, it's been a couple of turbulent months so far this summer. It hasn't been exactly the numbers we'd like to see. So how are we reacting? What are those changes? What are we seeing and are we making changes or are we just saying, oh, this is what happens during this time of year. This is what happens with the industry. It's the ups and downs. I don't think that's gonna make it for much longer. I think we're gonna have to have the ability to pivot extremely fast and make some quick decisions. And with that really comes the curiosity. I'm learning I make sure I try to learn at least something within the AI space every day and whether it be for personal or for professional and understanding that landscape and what are the actions that hoteliers need to take, because that's the biggest question. What do I do? What are the steps I can take? So we need to stay on top of that. I think it is very exciting. I think those changes are gonna do a couple of things. My biggest hope is that. It takes away a lot of that mundane work that was out there for sales and revenue people and give them that ability to spend more time creative thinking and really understanding what's happening to help make better decisions. I do think that is the end state. It's not gonna take over all our jobs, but it is going to help us do it a lot easier and take over a lot of those mundane tasks that that just slow us down.

Dorothy Dowling:

I don't think I could have said it better, Brian. I love that concept of a lot of the, what I consider the grunt work of, cutting, pasting, putting data together all of that. I hope we're gonna have a lot more productivity and efficiency and hopefully be able to really enhance a lot of what that information will allow us to do. But what I also loved what you had said is really just that. Understanding of all of the other disciplines, because I do think we've been very siloed. I think we talk about commercial leadership and I think there are some green shoots where people are embracing that, but I do think there's a long way to go and I just look at how technology is also bridging some of those interdependencies between B2B and B2C. And if we don't truly bring marketing, sales, distribution, revenue management. All of that understanding and breadth to the way we do our jobs, and we aren't going to be able to drive the kind of performance that owners and investors expect. So I think that's really well said, and I do hope that those that are listening are going to embrace some of those stretch opportunities to explore some of the other disciplines in the business.

Brian Hicks:

Spot on. Yep. Couldn't agree more.

Dorothy Dowling:

So I'm just wondering if we can talk a little bit about talent development, because that is the cruxes that many speak about today as people and how they power the business. But I'm just wanting to ask you, if you were sitting on the shoulder of a leader and. Giving them some guidance in terms of how do they evaluate high potential talent? How do they really build some of those direction growth opportunities to power some of those individuals and, optimize their career development

Brian Hicks:

talent has been a. Another area within my career that has really propelled my career forward. And I take really great pride in seeing individuals that I've had an opportunity to play some role in their development, seeing them move on to bigger and better positions. There's nothing that gives me more pleasure and more satisfaction in my job than seeing others succeed. It's always been a big focus of mine. I don't know where it came from. But I think that's one of those, if I think back to another area of success for me it's understanding your purpose. It's understanding, where. Are you going to add value to a team, to an organization, to a new role that you're stepping into? So for me it has been talent. So stepping into a new role, my first task is to really get to know the team and assess their skills, understand what really drives them, what do they enjoy doing, because if they enjoy doing it, they're gonna do it well. They're gonna be motivated to do it. They're gonna want to do an amazing job. So understanding what they do well next, where do they want to go, and then how can you help them get there? Understanding and there's plenty of tools out there that, strength finders is an easy one to just understand where your individual team strengths are. Take that opportunity to maybe make some changes in terms of individuals roles and responsibilities. Yes, we may have titles, but. Going back to crossing through some of these silos, what better way than giving somebody in sales a quick data challenge? Because that individual loves data and revenue management might feel infringed upon, but you know what? If they're gonna do it and do it well then give them that opportunity. So giving your team. Those opportunities to not only do what they love, but then also do some things that are gonna help them get to that next step in their career. So really focusing on talent, really focusing on where they want to go, understanding what type of other opportunities that they might want to take advantage of. And then lastly, what are their development needs? Is it leadership? Is it data? Is it sales? Whatever it might be. And then helping them to cover off some of those areas as well, I think is really critical. It's been a real key driver to my success over, over the years. And I think if that's one of your passions and that as your purpose. Go for it. I think it's a high need in our industry today. I think fewer people are coming in with that mindset, and you could probably really differentiate yourself as a leader if you're really focused on talent.

Dorothy Dowling:

The thread that I'm hearing in this interview, Brian, is just this focus on intentionality. And so when you're thinking about teammates, identifying strengths, but then actually putting a roadmap together and collaborating with them in terms of what their journey, what they want their future to look like, and really. Building an intentional plan for them to get there. So I'm sure that you know the reason why you take so much pride in the individuals that have been so successful under your leadership, it's because you built some of those intentional plans and have actually seen them come to fruition. So congratulations and thank you for sharing that.

Brian Hicks:

Absolutely.

Dorothy Dowling:

The one area that I'd like to get a little more DA information or thought leadership from you is really, the nature of our business and the focus on short term versus long term, and particularly with so many investment based leaders that, have very important roles, but it does tend to drive a lot of decision making, is focusing on short term. And I just wonder how you work with your teams to deliver on all those quarterly kinds of, outcomes that we are asked to do, but then also help them prepare for, those broader deliverables that they have to focus on simultaneously.

Brian Hicks:

In our industry we do focus a lot on the very short term, and I think if you really dig into what drove that short term impact, whether it's positive or negative, you'll find that it wasn't something that was done two weeks earlier. It was something that was done months earlier. And it was something that was done maybe even years earlier in terms of an investment, maybe in technology piece or whatever it might be. And so when you're in that situation where they're looking at the short term results and looking for a short term fix I think highlighting that is really important because, this is not, this is the long game. This is not a short game. There might be a few small instances where it's a, quick, short game and maybe there are some quick short decisions that need to be made. But in general. In our industry, that we're in it for the long haul and we need to make sure that our long-term strategy is just as buttoned up. And we spend as much time into that as we have into the short term. So I think as we think about investments it is important to understand investors' needs. What are their goals At the end of the day, it may be short-term cash, it may be long-term value, and that is a conversation that I think we need to have a bit more often so that commercial teams specifically can understand what the goals of the ownership interest are. It can be tough to, it can be tough to manage because if you are told that, you know what my short-term goal is to get as much cash as possible, you might have to make some hard decisions. And that can end up really frustrating teams at times. But again, I think understanding that coming up with a common plan and a common approach to try to solve that I is really the best way. And I think, again, just having open and honest conversations as to what are the end goals at least, will help everybody understand what the playground looks like and why the decisions that are being made. Where it does get really frustrating is if decisions are being made without communication and no, no understanding. The view then is just we're just making poor decisions at the end of the day. And nobody wants to be a part of that. So really having that open communication, I think is really key to understanding investors' needs.

Dorothy Dowling:

There's two things that I really love to, in, in that commentary, Brian. One is really always building the linkage on how some of the results were. Really founded in strategic thinking that had a longer term view. So I, and I think a lot of people lose sight of that. So I think that's really an important message. And I do think that overriding element of being very purposeful in communication, because I do think when people understand context, they can get on board. It's when they are just left with get it done and not really understand the why. It's really hard for people to. Invest in whatever the outcome that they need to influence. So thank you for being so honest. Brian, we're coming up at the end of our interview here and we always like to close out the interview in terms of the advice that you'd like to offer someone in the hospitality industry who's early in their career trying to chart their career just as you did with intention and purpose. So I'm wondering if you have some final thoughts you'd like to share with our audience.

Brian Hicks:

I think you touched on it a little bit. You said, understand the why, right? That is so important to understand your personal why. I call it my personal purpose so what is my purpose? And that has crafted my career. It has shown me where I can be most successful. Where I will add the most value to others and to the role. Maybe I'm an individual that is just absolutely data, just a data person. How can you take that, leverage it and ensure that kind of becomes a pillar of your success? I think the second piece of advice is. Invest in relationships. It's easy to have connections but if you truly want to have a. A, a network of individuals that are truly gonna help guide your career and move your career forward. You need to invest in those relationships. And sometimes that can be tough. Sometimes it can be, you're trying to get somebody's attention and it's just not working. Sometimes you need to make a decision, okay, I'm not gonna invest in this relationship, but identify the relationships that you do want to. Invest in and take the time and take the energy it will pay off. If we think about I think about my role at H-S-M-A-I, a big part of my role is establishing and making some of those connections, whether they turn into, highly invested relationships, it's up to those individuals, but trying to make those connections, I think is. It is a big part of our industry. It's what H-S-M-A-I is all about and I really enjoy it and hopefully I'll make a few connections for people that turn into some lifelong relationships.

Dorothy Dowling:

Thank you for that, Brian. I do think that focusing on your strengths at the beginning of your career and really leveraging those in terms of how they can amplify your career success and you and I both share that value of how we build relationships to foster. Other success, but also there's always that value proposition. The investment in relationships always pays dividends for everyone. So I just wanna express my appreciation for your very engaging and thoughtful leadership today. You've shared insights that I know will no doubt, inspire and guide many in our community and to our audience, I wanna thank you also for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's episode with Brian, we invite you to explore more stories at its. Personal stories.com where you'll find interviews with other leaders across the industry who are charting Bull Pass and building meaningful careers. We hope to see you there. Brian, thank you so much for making the time for us today and for sharing all your thoughts with us.

Brian Hicks:

Absolutely. Dorothy, it was my pleasure, and thank you for all that you do as well. You're really helping the industry. It's much appreciated. Thank you, Brian.