It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Mehul Patel, Managing Partner, NewCrestImage, interviewed by David Kong

• David Kong

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Mehul shares his inspiring immigrant journey, arriving in the U.S. at fourteen, learning English, and navigating a new culture. He recounts how, while still in high school, he purchased his first business—an early step that set him on the path to building the impressive portfolio of NewcrestImage. In our conversation, Mehul shares how he turns challenges into opportunities by taking a strategic long-term view, embracing calculated risks, and empowering his team. He also discusses the leadership qualities he values most and how he mentors and develops talent. Don't miss his valuable advice on innovation, networking, and bringing diverse perspectives together for success!

David Kong:

Greetings, I'm David Kong, the founder and principal of It's Personal Stories. We are a hospitality podcast with a mission to empower personal success. Today, I'm delighted to welcome Mehul Patel, a dear friend. He's also the managing partner of New Crest Image. He was the past chairman of the Asian American Hotel Owners Association. Really Mehul. Thank you. It's my pleasure to be here with you, David. Mayhoo, you've had a remarkable career journey. You came to this country and together with your partner, Chirag, bought a small bulk mail organization and you were able to quadruple the sales in the first year and then you leveraged that and launched into the hotel business and the rest is history. Would you care to share the key milestones and lessons of your career journey with us?

Mehul Patel:

Sure, David. Thank you. First of all, having me on this show. I'm really excited to be part of this show. You have done a great job in the industry and you were able to attract many great speaker that I admire and how passion. to hear their personal story, so I'm, I'm really great to be here with you. So, my journey has been really interesting. I came into this country when I was 13. I finished my high school and college here, and I didn't speak any English when I came into this country, because in India I studied in my native language, Gujarati. And went to boarding school, but coming here really adaptive to the Western culture. When I went to high school, I had many struggles. Language was one barrier, but just understanding the sports. How classes work, how education system work, how grading system work. That was my first beginning. And when you came into this country, you don't have any money. You go in school bus navigating through all those challenges when you are 13, 14 was really a unique challenge. So that was my beginning. journey to set myself up for be tough. Get ready for this journey because you don't know anything. You came to a country where you're going to explore and learn yourself on it. And then I was going in a high school, we only had one car. So my sister's got a job at mailing company, the mailing company that I bought and often I would go with her because we only had one car and I needed a job. So I talked to the owner, I got my first job and I was one of the best employee for him. Because I had a genuine interest to work and make a living out of it. I was in high school, sophomore year. I worked after school 30, three hours a day in a mailing company. A year later, I got my driving license and my owner was struggling. He had a big challenge with immigration and he was going to sell the company. And so I had worked in a company for a year. I made about 4, 000 a year and I was a mail courier. And so one day he was like, Hey, I'm going to sell this company and things going to be different. And I was like, curious, why are you selling it? So he told me all his problem. And so then we said, why don't we buy the company? And he laughed at us, right? I was 16 at that point. And so we said, no, seriously, we would love to buy the business. And obviously both of us didn't have any experience on buying a first business. So we talked to him. So we agreed on 75, 000 price, 25, 000 down payment. So me, Chirag, and a couple other guys. brought the down payment 25, 000 and he financed 75, 000 and then we hired him because we didn't have the education of how to run a business. So we hired him to work for us 2, 000 a month and we said, we will pay you your 50, 000. More important, you know that how the business is going because while working, you'll know that you'll get your 50, 000. So it was a really trust factor. And so that was what happened. And I got a job, I bought the company, and we started changing behind the scene, what the weakness we knew, because sometimes people played. Sometimes people didn't work properly. So once I bought the company, we all made it very efficient and all the friends were working together. So it become a very unified group. A team really worked together, all the high schoolers. And one day we bought the company for 75, 000. And the same year in December, we got a big contract. Suddenly the company is worth a million dollars in six months. Couple years later I sold the company for a million dollars. Before I finished my high school, before I went to college, and started my journey in hotel business. And I always wanted to be in a hotel because that's where I started my journey when my dad and mom lived in a motel. And so then I made all the investment while going to college and high school in a motel business because I thought that's where I can create a bigger value. And then I bought a roadside independent motel, would convert to a franchise motel like I had done at one Best Western. We did Days Inn, Super 8, Ramada, Quality Inn. So I would buy roadside property there next to McDonald's or something and convert to franchise and then create a revenue and sell them. And then completed my college degree. And then 2001, 9 11 happened. That was a really roadblock. I didn't have many assets, but I was still quite young and didn't realize what was happening to the travel industry with 9 11. I was still learning at that point, what was going on with the travel. How deep the travel impacted on it. And I was really learning, hearing everything on it. And year later, I said, I want to start building. I want to start construction. So we build our first best Western, the ground up construction was in Jacksonville, Texas. So that was my first experience with best Western brand ground up building construction. And so we started fine tuning. I had a couple of great guys to say, we would like to build the best Western. And that was the beginning journey in construction industry. And since 2003 to 2008, I built probably a dozen hotels and 2008 crisis happened. In 2009, we were completing all those assets. Very tough time for me to understand. And every downturn has given me a different new learning lesson, whether. Financial issue, liquidity issue, or not enough leadership or enough bench in the company that I was building for it to take a new challenges. And so that was a new learning lesson to how to manage risk on your portfolio. And then we overcame the 2008 challenge. Then since 2012, we have a new strategy. We said, we're going to have a discipline investment thesis if we're going to do it again. And then we started building dual brand. We converted to many Marriott Hilton. Really elevated our portfolio to different level and primarily started building in urban location And started forming a management company a true management company where the leadership would take a role And really have all the discipline in a company. So it probably took me 15 years to learn from where I was a rookie to become a, I would say really I was a true professional running a hotel management company. But along the way there was many failures. You name it. Every challenge is from building construction, managing, setting up a management company, getting a loan, dealing with a downturn, and managing lender expectation, brand expectation, and people When your team is expecting their expectation as well. So those were a beginning journey of my getting into a true becoming a hotel professional, I would say.

David Kong:

You've come a very long way, and I find it so remarkable that at the age of 16, you bought the company where you had your first job. That's just a wonderful story, and how you thought about the wind solution of buying the company, having the owner finance it, and retaining him so he could help you run the business. That's just so smart at such a young age. And the whole journey is full of wonderful stories. I love it. You spoke to some of the challenges that you face, whether it be securing a loan or construction or the downturn in economy, and you've excelled through all those challenges. Would you mind to share your advice on How to approach challenges and provide some tips on how you remain resilient.

Mehul Patel:

Sure. Over the years, what I have learned and every downturn, the, what things have helped me. Every time you have a problem or challenge, there is a bigger opportunity. Sometimes the problem are created for the big opportunity, in my opinion. And when you are dealing with a problem or a opportunity, how can you convert opportunity? It requires, I always looked at two or three different attributes. First one is strategic mindset. You gotta think long term. Any challenges you have, if you are thinking short term to solve the problem, You're basically putting a bandage in my opinion. So you really need a strategic mindset to think about the decision you're trying to make to solve a problem. What is that impact going to be short term, long term? So that is what you really have to think about it. Second one is I would say you got to take calculated risk when you are in trouble or challenge. You really have to take a calculation risk. What is the risk factor, whether from human capital side, what other stakeholder may be impacted. So you really have to think about a calculated risk approach. And then the last one is people and leadership. I think that's the most important. When you have a challenge, you reach out to your leadership, your team members to say, how can we solve together as a team effort? Sometimes you're not the only smartest person in the room who could solve everything, but sometimes who's surrounding you They may have the answer. So you just have to include them rather than exclude in my opinion, because many times the same people in the room, they were also part of the problem, or they were also part of the solution. So sometimes working together, solving a challenge, that would be my approach. It has always been anything I have always done. Look around the room and say, Hey. Could you help me? Or you might have a better perspective than I do. So sometimes hearing people perspective before coming down to a conclusion would be a better opportunity conversion, in my opinion.

David Kong:

That's so true. And it's wonderful advice. And I particularly like the way that you think about a challenge. It's actually could be an opportunity. And yeah, but you have to think strategically and you have to think long term. But the more

Mehul Patel:

the time and time you do that level of involvement with your team, the team becomes stronger and they're thinking day to day problem. They're solving it much better in a strategic way. So your, your company or your leadership isn't getting into the same issues that just happened. So that has been a pivotal point for me to solving for long term. Every time we had a problem, we solve for long term that issue and people learn from that. So that was a really good learning lesson in my opinion.

David Kong:

Yeah, that's very true. You bring your team along and they grow through the process as well. Now, you alluded to this, but setbacks are actually great opportunities that can shape your career. Would you mind to speak to a specific setback that you faced, any of the financial crisis or Any of the other challenges that you faced?

Mehul Patel:

Yeah, I think now I'm been 25 years after my college here in the hotel industry, banking industry. There is, I would call many challenges. I wouldn't call it such a failure. Sometimes the failure makes you say it's a wake up call or kind of saying. This is my wheelhouse. I can fix it because I know how to deal with it. I'll talk about 2000 challenges when 9 11 happened very young age, didn't knew much about how to deal with it. And I think the country hasn't dealt with 9 11. We didn't have that big of terror attack. So the world was trying to learn on it. And as a young entrepreneur, I was also learning. How to take care of my business, how to take care of my people and people weren't coming to hotel and when people came in, I learned from CNN. San Francisco people were serving cake when the travelers came just to give a traveler confidence and all that. So I was living in Texas in a small town. So I did the similar stuff learning from CNN. Other hotelier were doing right in a big city. So that was learning from other leaders who's doing a great job out there. 2008 and 9 financial cries were very detrimental. I had 10 hotel under construction and convincing a lender when the hotel isn't open and they're asking how is your performer looking when the downturn is that the travel demand was downturn and you're trying to show your performer that you're going to meet the debt service. And so I had to convince a lender to talk about how my management style is different. We're all hands in approach. We're a day to day operator. We would go to the property and really meeting with the customer, meeting with our team member and trying to best downsize our operation to make sure managing the expectation of the guest and expectation of employee to make sure we cram down all the expenses and every money we would make, we'll make sure the lenders get taken care of on it. The best part we did in 2009 was invited all the lender in one meeting and given them our strategy. How are we going to survive? And I said, if we don't survive, we'll call you again and ask you, how can I survive because either you have the answer or I have the answers. And so we navigated through that setback as well. And I think the last setback was COVID. I think we all, I think the world was put to a challenge that how are you going to survive? And I think March 16, when the world shut down, I had 47 hotels. I think we had to shut down 26 hotel and asking every single team member to go home and not sure if you're going to get a paycheck two weeks from now when the hotel is shut down. I didn't even have the answer. And every day at four o'clock I had a call with the team and I would update them what's going on. I'm talking to the lender, talking to the brand, talking to all the lodging association, right? HNLA, who we were all exchanging ideas, what they're doing. And it was an all day long zoom call. Luckily we were working from home, but it was. 12 to 14 hours a zoom call and trying to share best practices and help everybody. And what we came about is our team was behind the scene to come up with a plan to say. Mike, you're working on a front end. Let us work at the property level, grassroot level. And that is how you build a company culture. Our leaders were working, taking care at that point. It's not your problem. It is our problem to solve also. So we all came to, uh, together and we make sure that all of our team were taking care, their needs were taking care, food were taking care. And we said, we'll survive 30 days at a time. And luckily we open all the hotel after 47 days. We brought the team back. We did a deep cleaning and managed taking care of their families and whatnot, but most important, we looked at their safety in COVID, make sure that no one was impacted and anything we could help them with family. So I think that was the biggest setback financially for the company, but we had a strong balance sheet. And we had a strong escrow. So we were able to survive that the biggest setback in my life I would say and most of the companies right the largest company had a big setback off They had to draw their line of credit and luckily we had a good discipline in escrow And the biggest item is having a best relationship with your brand partner your lender When you know that when you call and say something, you live by your word, that meant most of the lenders saying, if I had my borrower telling me something, they stood by it and they supported us. So that was my biggest learning lesson is the relationship.

David Kong:

That's true. And we're going to learn more about how you build those relationships. But first, I want to also comment that you have built a wonderful team. People have stayed with you for a long time. What do you do to find the right people? And also, what's your philosophy on coaching and developing that talent?

Mehul Patel:

I think in a leadership style, first is attitude. Are their attitude willing to do everything? Be part of a team and not just define their role as their role. That has been a key factor on picking the attitude. If the person has a positive attitude and willing to do anything and everything for their team, then that is the check mark. In my opinion, I would say, that's the person I want to work with attitude, right? I should be able to feel comfortable to work somebody. I always tell my team, you always want to hire a person that can you work for that person? If you can work for somebody else, that's the person you would have a better. Synchronization, crafting, collaboration, relationship. So that is a true quality and we look for it. When, once you identify executive team, I always look for empowerment. You have to empower your team to do the right thing and let them give them a challenge, give them the opportunity. And let them run with it, give them opportunity, give them their own space to show their creativity, show their ups and down and let them navigate through it. If you don't allow the empowerment to happen, then the leader doesn't flourish. You don't see their best quality coming out of it, right? So you got to give that opportunity to a leader. And that's always been empowerment is one of the factor that we look at our company to say you have to empower your leader. And then see continue growth, right? Once you have a leader, you want to see around the room is, are you helping grow other leaders in the room or are they just staying there? Many times people don't get opportunity for growth, then they'll think about outside the box. But sometimes you invest all the time and effort. on the human capital. They don't want to leave you right. It's a simple philosophy. Invest in your people, help them grow, empowerment them, and that's your team. That's your core team. Those are three simple philosophy I have lived and breathed by. But that's not just me. But this is a universal, I would say, approach to it. A good culture, bringing the right executive leadership to your company and surrounding yourself with the right leader, in my opinion.

David Kong:

So true. No wonder you've been so successful. Very good advice indeed. Now you've managed some really difficult situations and I have always admired your political acumen. How do you navigate a situation where there are strong opinions and very diverse opinions? and achieve unity towards a productive outcome. As a

Mehul Patel:

leader, you always have to think about Not taking a position left or right your job as a leader to always Actively listen your job is to I always tell people in my it's funny. I'm gonna show it to you This is the principle. I live word by two years one mouth. Can you read it? I always say active listening. That's the biggest aspect of my Office too. I tell people active listening that is if you can listen what the person is saying And not what you want to hear that is two different part on it. So my always philosophy is Active listening, not taking sides as a leader and trying to figure out a common goals when you have two person or two different approaches. What is the common goal for each party? And if you can figure out a common ground, I think you accomplish the objective of bringing two people together. And often we use the word collaboration, but people don't understand the collaboration word. That you're not supposed to take a side or not pick a path. Bring two people together and really hearing what they have to say. And really, I call it a, that's what I call it a strategic mediation to be a degree. We're trying to help mediate two people together. And that is the I would say success of a unity on anything you accomplish, whether work in any organization, whether in your family, whether I have son and daughter, they both want something that goes to the parent. How do you listen to both of them and really finding what they really wanted and finding a common ground, right? So I have been such a lucky that be able to bring people together and really not take a side and really give them a middle ground to say, I think here is we can all work together and that has been a true success. When I was at a whole, I had opportunity to work with you. And when I was dealing with 35, 000, 35 board member, very diverse group of board member, different education sector, everything dealing with different issues. And then 16, 000 who are board member at that time and dealing with all the industry brand. And I was really careful in listening to high profile leader. My job was to listen. And then when I listen, I went back to my team and say, this is what I heard. This is what they say, not what I thought. I said, this is what I heard. And this is the way for us to solve it. So that was my true success on bringing people together and working with the people together.

David Kong:

I'd love that. I also think that active listening is the key to coalescing diverse opinions and identifying common ground and Also, the common goals of the parties involved. Very good advice. Thank you so much for sharing that. Now, you were an early adopter of the Boutique Lifestyle Hotels before it became the mainstream. I remember you talking about that. And I was just wondering, what's your advice on staying ahead of the curve?

Mehul Patel:

Thanks to our industry, America's Lodging Conference. I was sitting there, I think this is in 2008. In Microsoft theater, one of the engineer came in and he showed us what Microsoft windows look like 98 windows, 2000 windows. And I think that was a windows XP. And then now office three 65, right? I was sitting at 2008 and I said, if you are in technology world, if you don't continue to evolve and change, this is in 2008, I'm thinking, reflecting how I'm giving you my answer today, but staying ahead of your companies and the world, it's the most. important aspect of a leader and a company to think ahead of it because The mindset often change people wants and needs are different time to time And you always have to think today is my routine how my routine is going to change five ten years from today From my behavior my working behavior to everything And so at that point we were the hotel industry had a core brand and then every time this new brand were coming up and every hotel owner would say Why would we invest in a new hotel? It's the same guest room, but different name. I saw something different. I said, no, their style is different. Their offering is changing, even though it's the same guest room, but we're differentiating the offering, differentiating a guest room experience, even though it's changes only 25 percent of the whole programming. And so that's where I fall in love with lifestyle. I'm sure in 2000, we all heard the word lifestyle to say, okay, that's the new segment has. in a big way. And so I said, okay, I'm going to focus on it. And dual brand was a new concept to say, you put two hotel together, uh, complimentary, whether a courtyard town place or Hampton and Homewood together, every brand has that same combinations. And so I was early adopter in 2011 to start building courtyard and town place and AC hotel and residency. And we built probably dozen so far. And we were really successful bringing those two brands together And many times we would have a family who lives in a residence in and a business traveler stays in a courtyard But they were all able to meet together whether they're friends or whatnot Uh, their wants and needs are different even when two friends are traveling somebody wants because they have family They want extended stay and someone wants lifestyle whether he's here or whatnot So we made an early investment in a lifestyle space in a dual brand in urban city center and that become a huge Differentiate for our company to say, you know what this guys have figured out a way and then we hosted many events to share our success. With all the brand partner and it become a really true game changer for the industry to say, you know what, two brand can concide and now there are people who have done triple brand three together, right? Two weren't enough, they did a three brands together. Kudos to industry that we took something out of the industry and really took a challenge to say we could create something unique in the, in the industry. So we were the first, we taken a many old office building. Class C office building, but class B location and converted them to a historic building into a hotel, we would convert historic building into a lifestyle boutique hotel or convert them into a dual brand. So we really looked at a redevelopment, completely different approach than just traditionally building or buying something else. And that was a really game changer and local municipality were given us a really kudos to say we had a vacant building. You came in. The building's been sitting 20 year and you came in and really given a new life. And so that was a many what I call it is giving back is fun So we've given back many communities a lot of fun what I call it that people still enjoy that experience today They're taking old and giving them a new life.

David Kong:

I love that and it really ties into what you were saying earlier sometimes challenges opportunities and You look at a situation that you identified opportunities because you're thinking strategically and you're thinking long term and you're not afraid to take a risk and you surround yourself with a great team. All the things that you said so far has been wonderful advice. I really appreciate that.

Mehul Patel:

Thank

David Kong:

you. Now I see that we're running a little tight on time, so I'm going to ask you just three more questions. The first one ties into networking. You alluded to this earlier because of the strong relationships that you had with your lenders, your friends, and also your partners, you were able to not only survive but excel through the different crises that the industry faced. So what's your advice on building a strong, meaningful connection with all those people?

Mehul Patel:

I think it's the most valuable network you could build. I always tell in life, when you were born, your name was given by somebody else. Education was given by somebody else. The food was given by somebody else who made the food for you. Whether you go eat outside, somebody given the food, a job was given to somebody else by you and your salary was given by somebody else. And even when you die, somebody is going to carry you in the grave. So there's nothing a human being. would do by yourself beside having the right network, your friends, your influential, obviously your friend, family is always there, but networking is what impacts your life professional and personally. Many times you're going through industry and you're meeting with the people and really connecting what's going on with your world, connecting with them. And I always learned that it's not about always calling somebody being a selfish to say, I need help. Sometimes you have to be the first one to say, how can I help you? Check on somebody to say, how can I help you? Sometimes you have to give yourself before you ask something else in return, right? Don't expect always the first in a network to say if I'm networking with somebody, what can I expect in return? That should never be about building a network, right? You're building a network should be very selfish to say I would always give If I get something in return, I'm gifted, but don't ask anything in return for network. Network is just to be there, you're giving something, somebody's life can be impacted, whatnot. Second one is, I would always say be authentic. When you build a network, it's honesty, ethical, it's integrity of who you are. And people respect more of that than anything else, because when you have established those relationship with the network, they will open the doors for you when you need it. They'll help you when you need it, or they'll help you along the way to find your next chapter. I met a lot of the people, and when I was buying a portfolio, this is a classic example, two of the gentlemen I'm going to name, L. Patel with Baywood and Jam Patel from Oklahoma City. I was buying a 25 Lakinda from Raj Trivedi, one of our best friend as well, and Raj said El from Baywood might want to buy some and Champ would want to buy some. And so I called Champ Patel in Baywood. I said I'm buying 25. Instead of us competing, can we just buy together? Both of them say yes, and they hang up the call That was a simple question that they didn't even ask how what price or anything because the mutual respect was set up to do a 75 million dollar transaction that both gentlemen didn't even ask me anything. They said we're in mike. That's it. And so this is what Trust will come out of your network on it. But it has to be authentic. It has to be honest. And it's not always that you want something we we worked on to give something else, right? I could have been selfish to say, I wanna buy my portfolio, and I could tell them to back off, but that wasn't my call. I said, I'm buying this. Can we do it together? And they were like, sure, why not? We do it together. And so that's a true power of a network in my opinion.

David Kong:

That's a wonderful story. I love that story. It really illustrates the point that relationships are built on trust, and you are authentic, you regard relationships as a two way street, so it's not always asking for something, but also checking on other people to offer help. And it's because of that trust that opened up these opportunities for you. And I love what you said about that transaction. You've thought of a win solution, which is very meaningful to build relationships. Thanks so much for sharing that story. We often have a negative inner voice that prohibits us from reaching our potential. And that voice is particularly troublesome when you are in a setting where you feel like you don't belong. How do you maintain confidence and presence in those challenging situations?

Mehul Patel:

First of all, English is my second language. I wasn't born here. And I always define myself as accidental hotelier. I'm accidental banker now. And so when you talk about a room, you always have to be confident. So you always have to feel like. I can figure it out or I'll find a way to get things done. Those are the two answers and give me an opportunity. Sometimes you have to say, I'm worthy enough opportunity or I'll figure it out. But my response has always been, you're true valued, have a confidence on yourself, and be able to demonstrate in a room where you are invited. And if you can show your confidence, I think people around the room would say, glad we included this person. And that has happened to me and many times, uh, That's

David Kong:

a perfect segway to my last question. I think anyone listening to this podcast will find Mehul to be passionate, to be dedicated, and his enthusiasm is contagious. And you just spoke to having that confidence, that inner drive in you that enabled you to be successful. Is this something that's in all of us? And if so, how do we discover and ignite our own inner drive?

Mehul Patel:

I would say, stay humble, stay adaptable. Humble is the biggest item that I learned. Our good friend, Mark Applemason, always remind us. Be empathy, be grounded, invest in relationship because I learned from other leaders how to overcome some of my weaknesses. If you say here is my friend or here is my network or here is a group that I belong to, be open and be able to ask themselves, can I get a help or I need some assistance here? It's okay to ask for it, right? End of the day, but that is what you call, I want to be able to adapt. I want to be able to change. I have a belief. I have the willpower, but what does it take to close that circle? You have to be able to speak up at the same time. You cannot just always say what you want to say, but sometimes there is other people also have something to contribute in your, thus the willpower can ignite you time to time. Sometimes you cannot be always say, I know everything I always look at in my room is when you have a people full of rumor on you don't want to be the smart. You don't want to be the smartest person. You want a leader to make all other people smart in the room. You shouldn't be the only way. Always person say if you can make 10 people smarter than you are, you accomplish the biggest objective of your day or your life. Because now, because of that 10 people smarter, they're going to make other 100 people smarter. And so that is what really makes you don't always feel like you're the smartest person, give other people opportunity to rise, give other people opportunity to demonstrate their leadership, their passion. And that is how I stay adaptable, be able to change, be able to deliver, be able to take things forward. And it's a journey. It doesn't end here. Our destination isn't final. Success isn't about everything that you want to achieve somewhere. There is no success in life, in my opinion, because you're raising the bar every year. You're getting older, you're getting wiser. You want to do better things every year. To me, there is never a success to me. It's, can I do better than yesterday? Can I feel better than yesterday? Can I make people around me feel better than yesterday because I may have not done a good enough job yesterday, but can I do better job tomorrow? And if I can bring smile to people, it's the greatest joy of my life. I would say

David Kong:

so true. I love everything that you just said. And I particularly like what you said about surrounding yourself with people that are smarter than you. You want to hire people that are smarter than you. Because that's how all of us can get better. Thanks for sharing that wonderful tip. I'm afraid that we're out of time. I feel like I can talk to you the whole day. But regrettably, we are out of time. I want to thank you again, Mei Hoo, for that wonderful insight and tremendous advice. Thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom with us. Thank you, David. And to our audience, if you enjoyed this interview, I hope you'll join us on our website. It's personalstories. com. We hope to see you there. Thanks again. Thank you.