It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Mike Gamble, Chairman & CEO, SearchWide Global interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

• David Kong

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In this engaging podcast episode, Mike Gamble, Chairman and CEO of SearchWide Global, delivers actionable insights for both candidates and companies. He outlines practical strategies for mapping career paths and acing interviews, while also sharing proven methods for retaining top talent and driving innovation in the competitive talent landscape. Mike underscores the importance of aligning talent marketing, employer branding, and cultivating an authentic culture to build workplaces that truly resonate with professionals. Join me for an enlightening conversation with Mike and discover valuable takeaways that can transform your approach to career growth and talent management

Dorothy Dowling:

Greetings. I am Dorothy Dowling and welcome to It's Personal Stories, a hospitality podcast that highlights the inspiring journeys of leaders in the hospitality industry. We are a non profit organization dedicated to personal empowerment. I am delighted to welcome Mike Gamble, chairman and CEO of Search White Global. Mike, it is such an honor to have you with us today.

Mike Gamble:

Dorothy, great to be with you. Really looking forward to it. Wonderful.

Dorothy Dowling:

Let's get to it, Mike. I think the first question I would like to hear from you is that you've been in executive search for quite a while now, but you started your career in the hotel industry as a sales and marketing leader, and you spent time in the CBP space. I'm wondering if you can share a bit about your journey and some of those career inflection points with our audience.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, I would love to. Dorothy, I'm going to tell you a quick story. Back to college days. I promise it won't be too long, but it's interesting and a little funny. I was at the university of Wisconsin, green Bay, studying business and my dentist said what do you want to study? And I said business. And he said but what do you like in business? And I said, I love. Hotels and resorts because I've worked at one in the summers for the last four or five years. He said you should go to the University of Wisconsin Stout. They have a hotel restaurant degree and program there. This, by the way, Dorothy, this is in the early to mid 80s. I got into the dentist chair, called my father and said, I'm going to transfer University of Wisconsin Stout. They have a degree in hotel restaurant. My father said, are you sure it's a four year degree? And those words are ring so true today that he was skeptical that I could really earn a degree and I did. I went to Stout and those were in the days when University of Wisconsin Stout was graduating about a thousand students in hotel restaurant, and I was just I was lucky Dorothy to go there to earn my degree and then to be hired by Marriott right out of Stout and even luckier. To get put into the sales training program with Marriott. So nine wonderful years moved all over the country, loved every single minute of it when the Philadelphia convention and visitors bureau opportunity came up, I think some were surprised and some thought maybe I was a little crazy to leave the company. And I was running global sales for Chicago West at that time for Marriott. But I saw this opportunity in Philadelphia as one that. It's not that I really had a desire to work in a CVB. It just looked like a job that seemed interesting to me. So I embarked on that as senior vice president of sales and marketing for the Philly CVB. And I'll tell you, Dorothy, that for me was a very pivotal moment in my career. It, it broadened my perspective of the industry that what I learned about. The depth and dearth of our industry was just fascinating in the world of course, convention trade show working with the convention center in Philly, but more importantly, politics and just all those aspects. So I wouldn't trade that for anything in the world, loved that job. And those were in the days where Philly was really embarking on a rebirth of the community. So it was fun to be a part of that. And then. Love the job. Wasn't looking for my next gig. But here here came an opportunity to start search by global. And that was 25 years ago now that we really started this company in September of 1999. So we're 25 and a half years of executive search and travel, tourism, hospitality events. And it's been a good run. So that's my story.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think you shared some very interesting pieces. My part of was just the formal education and then how you really embrace the opportunity at Marriott, because they are definitely one of the leaders in the business that provide amazing professional development for their teammates. So I, I do think the discipline that you approach your career. And then I also share, just that courage to, to make the leap and to. Maybe a nontraditional career choice that broadened your understanding of the industry and just the complexity of our industry. And as you said, working in a CBB or an association, there's just so many different voices that 1 has to learn to navigate support and consider as you're making your decision. Those are all really good things for people to think about in terms of really having an intentional career map. So thank you for sharing that with us.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, I

Dorothy Dowling:

wonder if we can move a little bit into, just a lot of the expertise that you bring from the executive search space. And, part of is really just the trends that are really shaping our industry in terms of talent today, Mike, and I'm just wondering if there's anything that you can share that you see as being very notable in terms of recruiting and talent sourcing.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, boy, there are quite a few things. Of course, I'd have to, I'd be remiss not to start with technology and AI. And when I started the business 25 years ago, gosh, we didn't have LinkedIn. And so when you thought about how to find talent, where to find talent was very different than it is today. And when you think now of the digital platforms. That are available. It's really almost overwhelming, but I think that again, we're at an inflection point as it relates to sourcing talent. And I think is going to really change the game there and already has. But the other thing I'd say, though, is maybe a simpler thing is that. The good, and I think the smart companies have that have effective recruiting and retention have really realized that they've got to have an amazing culture and a place where employees feel that they're contributing to something bigger than the job that they're in. And when we see our, see clients of ours who. Who can really connect those dots for the team members all the way from the C suite, all the way to the front line, Dorothy, it just seems that they not only can recruit the best talent, but they can retain the best talent because they've really figured out that kind of that magic connection, if you will between what makes the culture go. But more importantly, what really gets the associate motivated. The other thing, though, I do hope is that we'll be able to continue to evolve in more skills based hiring. Because as Dorothy, in our industry it's pretty traditional. We'd love to hire people who've been in the chair before. And I get that. But I think, again, with AI, what AI will allow us to do is to really look at people from other industries and analyze the transferable skills. Where might they have experience that's very transferable to our industry and then help us analyze where are the downfalls and where might they need more training to scale up to a role with us. So that's what I'm hoping continues to evolve as it relates to technology and AI.

Dorothy Dowling:

I do think that whole element of purpose and I know all talent today, they want to be connected to organizations where they think they can make a difference. I think that's a really important message to our audience. And I also really love your message, Mike, in terms of us being more open to think outside the box in terms of how we fill roles and then how we really build out those development plans. And I do think AI is going to empower us to be far more efficient in terms of identifying the opportunities for development as well as. Actually providing a lot of that coaching through some of the tools that are being developed by some of the big providers in the space. I'm wondering, we can talk a little bit about return to office or RTO, because that certainly is a hot button in the industry. Maybe more broadly, it's not just our industry, but it seems that it's continuing to evolve a lot of businesses over the last several months have taken a much more, I don't know, stricter approach. I guess it'd be the words I'd use and they're using, they're shifting from 3 to 4 summer back to 5 days a week. I'm just wondering what your point of view is on return to office trends and how you see it evolving in the next few years.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, great question. Big question, Dorothy. That's. But you're right. It's in all industries, but specifically ours now as well. I don't know if you saw the McKinsey study this week. I'll have to be sure to send it to you. In fact, I think it just came out yesterday. With the headlines that RTO will not make employees more productive, and that's a big statement, and it's a good read, and I think that my, my sense on this, and I know, where I stand here, I think that, I think if you have an opportunity to have a hybrid workforce, and again, in our industry, that's different, we have a lot of people that have to work with us. In the store, if you will in the hotel in the convention center whatever the case might be. And so you have to balance that. You certainly have those who can work remotely and do not need to be in an office. So that's an important balance. But I think that I feel like if you can be hybrid, I think we'll hybrid will be a part of our workforce for a very long time. But I also think it'll swing back and forth. With the unemployment rate and the and it'll just be a pendulum and it's really supply and demand, right? It's when the reality is, as the unemployment rate goes up, companies will realize that they need to be more flexible, just as we were, Dorothy, during coming out of COVID. That is really, we were all remote, of course, but you can see how slow that was to come back to RTO. It's essentially taken about 4 or 5 years now. And I just continue to caution people To say that, to recruit the best talent, retain the best talent, boy it's more about the productivity. Then it is where they're doing the work. And that's why I think this new McKinsey study is interesting. And I look at amazing leaders in other industries like Jamie diamond. He's a brilliant man. I do not agree with anything that he says about this topic. And when he talks about that, people aren't productive. Those who don't work in an office aren't productive and they don't hustle. That's just not true. And yeah, I think that Dorothy to me speaks a little bit to the gap. Between the leaders that are typically boomers, or in some case, even above and the next future generations and how they want to work. So I just I feel pretty passionately as you know about this topic. And I just think it's 1 that we have to be cautious and not make things mandatory and really focus on productivity. More than where they're doing the work is really where I fall on that.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think having that metric focused approach that you're identifying Mike is really something that leaders have to embrace because I do think there's certain roles as you've identified that where there are no options that people have to be on property or in office for but roles that afford people some of that flexibility. I do think as long as they're driving home, the business outcomes. Then that should be the metrics that people drive some of that decisioning around. Yeah, so I'm wondering if we could explore a little bit more on culture, benefits, compensation and really get your point of view in terms of how expectations may be shifting or have shifted from both the candidate and an employer perspective.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, Dorothy, boy, the one thing and Gallup really emphasizes this, there's always, there's been much more focused on culture but the well being of the employees, the associates in the meaningful work. Are two things that I think are pretty new for all of us in the last few years, the next generation is currently and will continue to work differently than you and I did I we both came up, we went where the company told us to go and we work 70 hours a week and we wore, I wore that as a badge of honor. That amount of time was just what I did. We moved and I had my life fit in with that. And I think today that the generations want to, younger generation want to live their best life and have a job that fits in with that. And that's a different mindset and mentality. And some good companies are really understanding that. And that doesn't, again, does not mean that you give up productivity in order to have that. It's just a different way to work than what we're all perhaps. And yeah, I think that the other piece that we hear a lot, Dorothy from candidates is that culture and a great boss and being are more important than money from many, especially in the Z, the Gen Z and some of the younger generations, not all, I'm not trying to stereotype generations, but again that's different than I think my generation the baby boomer generation where I was very driven. Yeah. By what's my next job? What kind of a position will that be? And how much will I make? That's terrific. I'm ready to go up the corporate ladder and show me the way. That's not going to be the case. So I think that those are the things that we see are most competitive today, Dorothy, and that it's less about people. They want good benefits. They want good pay. They want all those things. Of course. But honestly, they're not ranking them as high as some of the other things that I mentioned, and that is, again, culture, but also the person you're going to work for.

Dorothy Dowling:

And I think that's really important again, messages like for our audience, because I know for me. I was really disturbed when I saw the Gallup engagement scores, particularly for the U. S. And seeing that we're at our lowest engagement scores with our teammates than we have ever been in our history. So I think that mindset of culture being a good leader to your teammates and then also really recognizing that This work life harmony for a lot of these individuals is really important and they will hold their leaders accountable to that. So great messaging. So I'd like to move on because I know our audience is always interested about their career and how to manage, their career. I'm wondering if you could offer any thoughts in terms of what makes a candidate stand out in today's competitive marketplace.

Mike Gamble:

I, I've noticed In the last 10 years, I guess I'd say, Dorothy, the emphasis on, on, on soft skills, on human skills, on EQ, of course coupled all of that coupled with authenticity. I think that, it's easier to find those who have the technical ability, understand the role and can do the job, but what differentiates people oftentimes is the, are their soft skills, their human skills, again, that EQ. And the way in which they are able to collaborate, deliver messages. Things like that, I think the other piece that I would say is it's amazing, Dorothy, how many don't think to do homework about the employer that they're going to potentially interview with. And so we spend a lot of time helping our candidates to understand how important that is because. You have to be, you have to do your research and be well researched before you go into any interview. And we see the candidates that do that stand out. Those who do not are eliminated immediately. And it's not even close because there's nothing more flattering. Then, and you know the story, you've hired hundreds, maybe thousands in your career. Nothing more flattering than those candidates who've really done their homework. And you feel, wow, you've really researched the company, me, our team, like that feels good. And there's nothing more insulting than the opposite. When all of a sudden you're sitting there in 20 minutes realizing, did you even look at our website? Have you even seen our digital platform? And so Those pieces, as simple as that is, that differentiates the candidates today. And then lastly, Dorothea, it's the follow up. There just isn't any follow up after the interviews. And I mean at the C level, okay, all the way through. But at the most senior of execs will often say, don't forget the. To send a note, and a handwritten one is really special, but at least an email. And so again, I know I have four kids, Dorothy, they're 25 to 32, and I would tell them when they were out, looking for their first jobs, I said, you can differentiate yourself. And you're competitive set by doing a couple of these things. Cause they think that you'll immediately separate yourself, with just these, again, these human skills.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think that's really great advice. And I think, salespeople often are very good. Doing all of that kind of research, because that's how they build a piece of business. And so I think if people take that mindset and get out there and do a lot of the digital research, but quite frankly, Mike, I think often, they have to get out and do some of the physical research and if there's sites involved and other kinds of things to get out there and try and experience whatever. The product or services so that they can have a point of view from a customer point of view and hopefully add some value as they interview through that process. I'd like to turn the table now and also ask about hiring leaders, because as we talked about employees wanting to hire their boss, what can a hiring leader learn from you in terms of how they can position themselves to the best candidates so that they choose the job and decide to come on board.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, boy, again, a great question. There's a real message that is sent based on your interview process, Dorothy, and how either efficient or clunky that is. And so we often talk a lot about that. If when you're interviewing and even onboarding, if there's even after you hire someone that first. A few interviews, and then those first couple of months in the job, it really should be the best of each other. And if it's not, then you know, that's not going to be a good long term relationship, right? And so I think that, I think again, it's helping our clients to understand that, hey, authenticity rules let's show the real culture. It's easy for candidates to really identify if the culture is real or not. I'll tell you the companies that, I think the companies that concentrate on their brand promise. For their current and future employees are the ones that are really winning. And you know who I think is doing that well, Dorothy, is Hilton. I think they've been doing that well for quite a few years for such a large hotel company. But the way in which they talk to their current employees and their future employees and their, and that brand promise about being a part of the Hilton family. And Marriott does a good job too, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say others don't. But they really stand out because I think it's very intentional. And so I think it gives them an advantage. To when they're recruiting and hopefully even retaining because again, it's just it's too easy to though you can't fake it during the interview. The employers just can't because it's too easy with glass door, too many ways to find out if it's real or not. So you better have an authentic and real culture to start with or you're gonna, you're gonna lose the talent war for the most part. And we really do believe that. Our clients who've got that buttoned up and figured out they get they are able to recruit and retain the best talent. That's, there's really no debate there. So those are a couple of things that I would highlight.

Dorothy Dowling:

Okay, that's great advice. I'm, I'd like to expand on that a little bit because she referenced retention, which, for me is critically important because as we think about sales and marketing roles, holding on to the customers you have is always job one. And I would say the same applies to talent. So are there other. Ideas that you could expand upon that great companies are really deploying to hold on to their employees and keep them engaged.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah. Yeah. This one's not very not very creative and probably doesn't seem that out of the box, but it's this mutual trust and respect. Dorothy and that gets back a little bit to the return to office and remote work versus not, and are we really trust that they're working and if, are we measuring them properly so that we can trust them? And I think that let's not micromanage, let's not watch the clock and see when they're working. Let's measure the right things. I think it's really important. One thing that jumps out that I would not have said 10 years ago is sabbaticals. Dorothy it's amazing. We see that in the destination sector and the hotel sector venues with more and more sabbaticals being offered. And I'll tell you the, and I'm at the C suite and all honestly, all the way through the organization, but starting in the C suite. And I think that is really refreshing because that's hard to do when you think about it for a small company or a large one, when I think about it, I've got a little over 20 employees. Gosh, how would I let someone do a 3 month or a 6 month sabbatical, but the companies who have figured it out? I think that's a big differentiator. And lastly. It's what, again, you and I have talked about a lot, this investing in the skill development of your people and in their mental health and in their wellbeing and when they really feel like you care about them and improving their skills and improving their mental health. Wow, I think that is a recipe to keep someone long term within your organization because again, it creates an authentic and meaningful relationship, between the employee and the employer. So those are a couple of things that Dorothy that stick out to me.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think the big message that I really like that you offered Mike is this element of trust because relationships are based on trust. And I do think. If I think about some of the engagement scores that Gallup released this year I think that is one of the underlying problems is that employees don't feel value to respected and trusted. And that's an area that I think we all have to do some thoughtful, unpacking to figure out how do we do that better.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, I think you're right.

Dorothy Dowling:

So I'd like to move on to some of the big roles because there's so many people that, have big aspirations that they'd like to land in the C suite someday. So I'd like to give you this sentence and say, if you had to fill in the blank, the strongest C suite candidates possess these attributes, what would you say?

Mike Gamble:

Boy, this list could get, can get long pretty quickly, Dorothy, but I have a few that I keep at the top of my list. And I don't mean to be redundant but I am this high EQ is a big one in this authenticity is another, but then I think right after that about humility. And I and I see some and I'm sorry, Dorothy. I thought we lost each other. I see that sometimes people just lose that and lose the fact that, we're all humans and we can I think we can lead with humility and I think that's important. And listen, of course integrity and ethics. That's high on the list. But this collaborative piece, Dorothy of at all levels, we have found that in the C suite that it's Even CEOs and C level executives have really learned over the years to be a great leader. You've got to be a collaborative team leader and team builder. And so that's high on my list. Empathy. Again, I can give you a list of 20 but those are the ones that it, you know from me that are right off the, a good strategic vision. Passion but again, I lead with the EQ, the authenticity and the humility are the ones that we hear the most and we see the most and that our clients.

Dorothy Dowling:

Mike and truly, I do think that element of humility and people not thinking that the smartest person in the room and they have all the answers is a very important skill set for people to recognize because there's so many great thoughts that come from teammates if we give them the space and the comfort to offer their ideas. So I'm also wondering if you could share some of your favorite interview questions when you're assessing those leadership capabilities and C suite executives.

Mike Gamble:

I think if anyone's watching that's worked with us especially for C level interviews there, when you get to that final one or two, and they're either presenting or, you're on that second or third interview a favorite of ours, and which turns out to be a favorite of our clients is to really, to really understand the vision of a leader is to say, Hey let's think five years from now, and what is the organization and your team? Look like under your leadership and how did you get there? And I think that the way in which leaders can work through a question like that, I think is interesting. And it it allows our clients to really unpack the way that they think about a big question like that. Another one is About status quo, give us an example of when you've had to challenge the status quo. And how did you approach the situation? What was the outcome? That's another one, Dorothy. And a third one, because this we know this happens in all industries and all businesses, we all have dilemmas, but when there's an ethical dilemma, give us an example of when you've had a situation that was an ethical dilemma and in your role and as a leader and for your team and for your company, how'd you resolve it? And what you learned from it. And so those are three favorites that, but I honestly think they become our candidates favorites too, because they've likely have multiple examples of all those. And yeah, those are a couple that I'd like to share.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think those are great questions to really, they're very thought provoking and hopefully the audience that's listening and watching can think through some of those things because I do think you have to. Really spend some time investing in how you would articulate those perspectives on those questions. Yeah I know you referenced some of the mistakes in terms of follow up after interviews, et cetera. But I'm wondering if there's anything else you might offer to the audience in terms of common mistakes that you see executives making interviews and what advice you would give them to stand out.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah. It's first, first we always have to remember there's a lot of adrenal adrenaline. You get it's an intense interview. If it's with a committee or if it's what, whatever it might be, you've, you're usually pretty charged up and ready to go. One thing that we say right away is just always remember that you're not running the meeting And what that means is it's just a simple thing that we say it is to, and that is to say. They're running the meeting. And so you're listening to the questions and answering the questions. And so that's a big one for us. The other one is again, back to my do your homework, because I think that all through an interview, if you've done your homework, you then have to be really specific about how you sprinkle that knowledge in throughout the interview. And I think that it doesn't have to be obvious and it's not all at once. And it's just, you sprinkle it in an hour and a half or two hours and Boy, that will let that will leave the interviewer or the committee with a very good taste in their mouth. The big one, Dorothy, I have to say though is try to answer the question that was asked. Not two or three additional questions you think you should answer with the original question that was asked. And that's hard. That again is hard. When there's a lot of adrenaline and it's that one question. And then all of a sudden, five minutes later, we're suddenly talking, we're answering the same thing, but we're talking about something completely different. It's that ability to say, gosh, they'll get there. The interviewer will get there. Just remember, they're running the meeting. And so just try to follow their cadence. I think that's a big piece for us. And then lastly and this is a big one too, is you've got to have some questions ready again, nothing worse. And you, Dorothy, you and I have both been there. I wish I was just there recently with my own company and I said what questions do you have for me? And. Really none. Gosh, don't tell me you don't have any questions. There have to be some questions, right? And that's important. And I think that I think the type of questions at the sea level. I think the type of questions you ask is equally as important. And so I think you have to have a couple of very tactical questions. And I think you have to have a couple of very big 30, 000 foot visionary questions so that you don't run the risk of leaving the room and then saying, Oh gosh, they're only tactical or gosh they're too big of a thinker. I think mixing both together are super important. So those are a few things. I know that probably sounded like a really long list, Dorothy, but those are a couple of things that come to mind. for C suite interviews.

Dorothy Dowling:

I think those are really impactful pieces of wisdom that you've shared, Mike. And to me, it really just speaks to the nature of being prepared and being very thoughtful. But I do think I think that advice of understanding who's running the meeting is really important, especially for senior leaders, because they're used to being in that other chair. So thank you for sharing that. That's a great piece of advice. I'm wondering if we can move on in terms of thinking about career growth for a lot of the listeners that are paying that are partaking in this interview. And 1 of the questions that we often ask are. Our advisors that joined this podcast is about professional networking and how important it is in career advancement and what advice you would give to individuals as they start out their careers in terms of that, is it important and how do they go about building it?

Mike Gamble:

Yeah. Yeah. It's an important question. I, even in our small little company, Dorothy, and we're involved in a lot of industry associations, greater industry associations, and one of my rules is I, that's fine. We're, I think we're a part of probably 35 plus organizations and the rule is simple. You can, you're not just going to be a member. We're going to get involved and we're gonna get involved at the committee level, eventually, perhaps at the board level. That's really important. It's important for your personal growth. It's important for our company and our brand, and I think all those things are true. Dorothy, I've worked for three companies in my career. And one of course is my own, but two of those opportunities came to me through my involvement and engagement in industry associations and networking and learning and growing. But then people getting to know me and who I am as a person and how I work in a volunteer capacity. And I think that I really, I'll never forget that. And I look at our younger groups now, and I think they want that. And I think many say, Oh, they don't want to do that. That's not true. I think they'd love to do it and they want to be a part of an HSM AI or an MPI. And boy, we'd encourage, we encourage everyone to do that. I think it's an important part of your career growth. And for, and I think it's very important part. For your company engagement as well. You're, they're representing your company, but you're also representing yourself and you're upskilling and learning a lot of new things from a personal perspective, as much as professional. So that's a big one for me is get involved and and really do it in a meaningful way. And I think that makes a big difference in the career journey. Look you and I really got to know each other. We've known of each other, really got to know each other through HSMAI. And it's just, it's the natural way, isn't it? And I don't want anyone to ever forget that. What an important part that is in your career journey, too.

Dorothy Dowling:

Yeah, no, I totally concur with everything you said, Mike. And I do think for people that are earlier in their career, getting involved, it just affords them not only a front row seat from an observational learning opportunity, but. Just building some of that peer mentorship and growth. It's, it really is substantive. I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about an ideal relationship between a candidate and an executive curator, because I'm not sure everyone really understands that.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, no that's fair. That's Dorothy. That was the biggest eye opener for me 25 years ago when I started is I suddenly realized people thought I was Jerry Maguire and that I was going to represent them as a person, right? And I said, no, I'm not Jerry Maguire. I work for our clients. And I think we have nearly 50 opportunities we're working on today with 50 great clients. And I often say we're like a realtor, we're working for the seller in this case, it's for our clients. But the reality is we care deeply. About the candidates and we want to nurture their journey as well and have and help them to show up the best that they can, if we're fortunate enough to put them in front of one of our clients. And so that's a delicate balance, but the reality is we were paid by our clients and we work on their behalf, but we're there to help make a deal. We want to find the best talent we can for them. And what I would say is it's the ideal relationship is all about trust and honesty. And when we work hard to help them to understand so that the candidates understand what our role is, but that we're in the long term relationship business with them, this isn't a transaction business. And so sometimes you may not get that job, or you might, this might not be the one for you. We're going to maintain that relationship and find the right fit. And I think that piece of trust and honesty is critically important. Honesty is critically important because. Boy, neither one of us want to be surprised during that journey and we certainly don't for something you maybe didn't share with us that you should have that'll come up during an interview. And so that's, those are the things that we really focused on the focus on the most to have good relationship. Worked in our behalf. I'll tell you, the opposite of it is, Dorothy, I, we just the honesty piece is a big one. And when you've been in business on 25 years, imagine the history of resumes that we have. So there are times where I'll say, gosh, you sent us this resume 18 years ago, where is that job in that job? Let's just have an honest conversation about that because, this is the story of your professional life. Let's not take things off because it's convenient or it was a short stint at that hotel or whatever the case might be. Let's include it and just tell the story. It's a part of your story. It's okay. So that's the way we approach it.

Dorothy Dowling:

I do appreciate you being so honest, Mike, in terms of really clearly establishing that you're there to support the client. And obviously the candidate is part of that process and you do have long term investments in those relationships, but it is understanding that is the relationship that candidate should expect when they're dealing with a recruiter. We're coming up near the end of our interview here, Mike, and. I'm just wondering if you could offer your best piece of advice for individuals in the hospitality industry who want to build a career map and plan their career journey with intention.

Mike Gamble:

Yeah, I think the big one, Dorothy, is to find a good mentor or two, and I think that I don't want to say that we have not done that as well in the last five or 10 years, but I don't feel like we have, I just seemed easier to me maybe 15 years ago. I I just, I don't know, but it starts. there with me. And I think being then really intentional with your career dreams and aspirations. And I think mentor, a mentor can help you with that. And that can come in many forms, it can be a previous boss, coworker, whatever the case might be. And I, so I think that's a big piece of it. And we talked about it getting involved getting involved in industry organizations is. Is a big one. But then lastly, and this one sounds so simple, Dorothy, but we have to remember this simple adage that, don't ever burn a bridge. And what's happened in the last few years with this ghosting by the way, we see it on the client side and the candidate side. And honestly, it's appalling to me. I'm thinking, what are we thinking here? And for an executive search firm, we have a long memory and a great database that's not the way we treat one another. We just don't do that. We don't not show up for interviews or not show up for a job and just think that's going to drift away. That's just not the way that we want to act or treat one another. And that's a piece that we take the time to talk to people about that. If they, if that happens to happen to us, we help them to understand how that can impact. Your career long term, that's the same as burning a bridge is what we now today call ghosting, right? It's just it's something that people just won't forget and but again, I would say that it goes for that goes for clients as well I think we have to be a lot better about the way in which we communicate with one another What important things like this potential jobs. So those are a few takeaways, Dorothy that I'd have today. And yeah, I'd be interested to hear if you've got any to add to that.

Dorothy Dowling:

No, I think you've just offered so many brilliant ideas for both candidates and employers, Mike, but I've always been of that same mindset about never burning a bridge because the world is small. Our industry is small. And I've always said to people, be careful of that informal reference check, because when you do burn a bridge, you never ever know who knows some of the individuals that you might be trying to get a role with and them just being silent or sometimes not being positive about your candidacy may be the end of that opportunity for you. So I agree with everything that you presented, Mike, and I'm just so grateful for your honesty and candor. I do think there's so many individuals that are. Working on their career journeys and definitely want an intentional career map to attain the kind of dreams that they have. So I'm grateful that you took the time with us today. I'm thankful of all of the great wisdom that you shared with our audience, and it really has been a privilege to speak with you. So thank you.

Mike Gamble:

I feel the same way. And thanks for inviting me. And it's always great talking to you, Dorothy. I enjoyed it very much.

Dorothy Dowling:

Likewise, so if I may, I'd also like to thank our audience and just offer if you've enjoyed this interview today, I hope you'll visit us on our website. It's personal stories dot com, where you'll see webcasts and podcasts from other industry leaders that I know will empower your knowledge and feel your spirit. So we hope to see you there.