Zach Demuth, Global Head of Hotels Research, JLL Interviewed by Rachel Humphrey

Zach shares his experiences with imposter syndrome and find out whether he's a risk taker or risk averse. He discusses his strategies for public speaking, how his curiosity drives him, and how he tries to combine his career and personal life in ways that provide him balance. Zach talks about his mentors, his mentoring, and his advice to his younger self.

Transcript

Rachel Humphrey: 0:02

Good afternoon. I'm Rachel Humphrey with D. E. I. Advisors. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering personal success in the hospitality industry, and I'm very excited to be joined today by Zach with Zach to move global head of hotels research for JLL.. Zach. How are you?

Zach Demuth: 0:21

I'm awesome, Rachel. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm really honored and excited to be here.

Rachel Humphrey: 0:26

I am looking forward to a fun conversation, getting to know you a little bit more. Here's some about your journey and some of the insights you've learned along the way. So we will jump right in. Tell me a little bit about your path to leadership. One of the things I love about the hospitality industry is that. We do not all have to take the same path to end up exactly where we want to go. So tell us a little bit about your journey, how you got to where you are, and if there were any pivotal moments in that path.

Zach Demuth: 0:52

For sure. It's funny, I was thinking back to my story when you and I, when you first approached me and just preparing a little bit for this. And if you had told me like 10 years ago that I'd be where I am right now, first, I would have probably not known what JLL was. And then second. I'm not sure I would believe you for many different reasons. I was really fortunate. I grew up just outside of Boston My parents always really prioritized travel they always taught us that travel was a way to experience the world and experience other people's perspectives So I was fortunate to grow up and travel in different places both domestically and abroad I remember as a kid checking into various hotels and always being enamored by what I thought was like these mini cities. Like you'd check in, people seem to know your name if you were at a hotel that had turned down service as a kid, they'd leave you a little note. And I guess I didn't really put two and two together that there's actually an industry, obvious now, but there's this whole hospitality industry. When I went to school, I really wanted to study journalism. I've always liked to write. I like the idea of, I'm a big avid reader and I like the idea of conveying emotions, via words. I've also really liked food and I thought I could be a food journalist. But one of the first classes I took happened to be in a hospitality school. And I think that's really when it clicked for me that, wow, all these hotels that I've stayed at over the years, there's actually this whole industry behind it. And so I ended up studying hospitality management. I went undergrad at Boston University and I'm not lying when I say I really loved every minute of it. I've. Always been a lifelong learner. I ended up going back years later and getting my master's and not just, not because I wanted to launch my career per se, but because I just love to learn. And I've always been very curious. And when I've studied, when I started hospitality for me, it was like every day, something exciting, right? Oh, you get to learn how hotels are built. Hotels are designed. The things that I think many of us in this industry gravitate to. And that just really piqued my interest. And from there I went on to work at Marriott for about 10 years in various strategy and revenue management roles. Again, telling stories with data has always intrigued me, blending art and science. And I know we'll get into it, but so many mentors along the way, so many people that taught me so much, pointed me in different directions, again, places that I never really envisioned that I'd end up. I think a lot of it was. Being put in front of opportunities and then saying yes to those opportunities, which is something I tell students that I try to mentor all the time. And my path has been anything but linear. And I've listened to a ton of people that you've interviewed. And I think that's one of the common themes is that, you might think you're going to end up one place and you have every intention to get up there and then you end up somewhere else and it's not necessarily better or worse. It's just different. And so I look back, I've had the opportunity to work in so many different markets, meet so many people, travel, which is something I love. I've been with JLL now for about three years. And again, it's been an amazing experience. A lot of it's due to the people I work with. I think hospitality is inherently a clearly a people business and yeah, I've just been very fortunate. I, again, I think back to 10, 15 years ago, never would have thought I've ended up here and sometimes. I don't think I should be here, and I know we'll talk about that. But yeah, it's been really an amazing journey. And I will say, I know we'll talk about Mentor shortly, but a lot of, I think, why I ended up in hospitality and hotels is the credit to my family. My mom's parents were Holocaust survivors, and they came to the US with basically nothing in the 1930s and 40s. And I think one thing my grandmother was fortunate to know for the first 10 years of my life taught me is that it's all about people and making connections with people. And that to me is no matter what part of hospitality you're in and hotels, it's all about people and making those connections.

Rachel Humphrey: 4:33

You just touched on so many things, not just that we're going to talk about, but. Saying yes to opportunities that may not be in a linear path. I think we do hear that a lot. The opportunity to have a career in any, I say this all the time, you can be anything you want in the hospitality industry. You can be a data scientist and have a career in picking hospitality as your industry. Sometimes I wait until, We're a little bit further along before I tell our audience why I've asked you to join me specifically because as everybody knows, I have somehow had my career or my leadership impacted by interaction with you. And I wanted to share that quickly now because a couple of the first questions I want to ask you about that. You and I first met a couple of years ago when you were going to be a panelist on a panel. I was moderating. We finished the prep call And I, I don't remember if I called you or emailed you and I said, I didn't understand a word that you had said, which you did, you took so much time over the next couple of months to share articles with me, to share data with me, to explain the science behind what you were talking about. It was not a full data panel. And I was. So interested not only in the way that public speaking opportunity brought us together, but also how my curiosity and learning something new and how gracious you were to say, yes, let me teach you everything that I can at that time period. And so I thank you for that. Because I really think that's such a great example of this industry and the way everybody wants to help lift everybody else up around them. But it also shows in some ways how important public speaking can be in a path to leadership. So I want to start there and ask have you always been comfortable with it? Do you have secrets that you prepare each time? What is the exact preparation to public speaking and the strategy behind it?

Zach Demuth: 6:29

For sure. First thanks for sharing that story. I do remember when we met and I firmly believe in education. Curio, I'm a very curious person. So when people ask me questions, I'm happy to jump in. And people have done that for me over my career too. On the topic of public speaking, it's funny. I'm a very shy person. I am an introvert in many capacities. I always say to my wife, thank God we met because we can go to a party and she can talk to anybody. All I need to know is one person and that's, then I'm happy. So public speaking has terrified me for years. I remember in prior roles when I would be asked to speak, even at internal speaking where, everyone, you're not on stage, no one's recording it. I would rehearse for hours and hours. And somebody gave me this feedback, actually a former boss of mine, and now we've become quite good friends. It's great to rehearse, right? You should know what you want to say, but in some ways, if you rehearse too much, you come off sounding robotic, or in some ways you come off sounding to rehearse and that you don't actually know what you're talking about. And what she said is that chances are, if you're asked to speak on something, you're an expert or close to an expert and more than most people in that room. And so you should own that again, not doesn't mean being cocky or whatever. And I think that's something I've really taken to heart over the years. I still am terrified to public speak. I get so much imposter syndrome before I get on stage. And I thought it was just me for a while. And I think actually this podcast has helped me a lot because I've listened to leaders that I've admired much of my career, many of whom I've never met in person. And a lot of them say some semblance of that. And to me, that's really comforting. I'll also say that I was recently at an event with our America's CEO and I don't know if he thought I was nervous or whatever, but I said something to him before we got on stage and he said, Oh, I have the same thing. And so I think that kind of acknowledgement that all of us have some level, whether it's imposter syndrome, fear, doubt, recognizing we all have that no matter what level you're at. To me, that gives me a lot of comfort. I would say my strategies for getting past that first is. Again, accepting that you have this level of knowledge. Again, I'm not trying to be cocky, but knowing some level gives you comfort, right? You're being asked to talk about something, about nothing. I'm not being asked to give a dissertation on rocket science, for which I know zero, I'm being asked to talk about something that I actually know about. And so I can, when you speak about something, I think it's easier. I've also been taught, and this is incredibly uncomfortable, but I do it anyway, is if you're going to give us a long speech, it's going to be recorded. You know the topic like practice and record yourself doing it and then watch your own recording and yes I'll admit there's very little that's more uncomfortable to me than watching myself speak or listening myself speak But you learn a lot about yourself whether it's like nervous tics you have, Little filler words the way you say things And I'll say that's been super helpful. So I, I encourage people that either hate publishing or people that love it. I'm gonna say you do that every time you speak at some point, it becomes second nature, but it's been really helpful for me over the years.

Rachel Humphrey: 9:25

Those are two really important points. Number one, the knowing that you're a subject matter expert on what you're being asked to speak about, but also the practice, as you mentioned, I have done that a lot. And now with this podcast, I get to see myself 50 times a year. But we always learn something from doing it. And I think that's a great thing. You mentioned imposter syndrome. So we're going to move right into that, because I think that I, like you not only have more than my share of it, but it have been. Really impacted by so many leaders sharing that and finding it relatable and thinking, okay, it isn't just me or there's not something wrong with me. Talk in a little bit about those self doubts and that building up that confidence or the relatability that you find when other leaders share that. Same perspective.

Zach Demuth: 10:16

Yeah, no, it's a really good question. I thought about it a lot. I think, the role that I'm in now, a lot of it is public facing, right? Whether it's in panels like the one you described, whether it's in the things we publish, which are public facing, and it's almost like a little piece of you is going out there. And I think there's I'll say personally, I have a lot of fear about that. Is it enough? Did I come? Did I address all the perspectives? And I think it's to me, at least very helpful to say the answer is no, like you didn't address all the perspectives because you can't. And that's okay. I think it goes back to having confidence and you're there for a reason, whatever that reason is, whether it's your expertise, whether it's your experience, some combination therein, and you have to acknowledge that and recognize it. And then I think to me again, it's really understanding that. Everyone has some level of doubt, whether even the most confident, seemingly cocky people share that. And so you're really not alone, but recognizing that you're there for a reason, I think has been extremely helpful. But I struggle with it all the time. I talked to our team about it. I think a lot of people struggle with it and think that they're alone. And I think again, to me Having this acknowledgement that everyone shares it is, has been really gratifying and really beneficial. But it's funny thinking back to my career journey thus far and overcoming self doubt. I think back five or six years ago when I made the decision or the thought that I wanted to get into more of the real estate side. I remember thinking, okay, like, how can I learn more? How can I learn more? And I remember reading like, Just at CBRE's at the time, Mark Woodworth, who had, the position that I have, but at CB, all of his stuff and be like, wow it would be like, how could I ever get to something like that? And that'll never happen to all this. And then I sit here and again, I'm not comparing myself, but to a similar position, right? And it's I don't really belong. But then I get, you have to take the compliments you get and say you, you do belong to some capacity. Yeah. But it's a never it's an internal battle. I think that personally never acts.

Rachel Humphrey: 12:14

I appreciate you're sharing that just as it has been important and relatable for you to hear it from others. So to now paying it forward, there will be others who hear you say it and we'll feel very empowered by that as well. You mentioned in your journey and then again another time the importance of mentors and champions in your path, and that can mean many things to many different people. Talk some about that. The people or the kinds of people that have been really impactful for you. And then as you're mentoring others, how do you go about advising others?

Zach Demuth: 12:47

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be where I am today professionally without mentors, both formal and informal. And I think that's where I'd start, right? Whether I'm mentoring somebody formally or informally, I think whether you're young in your career, whatever stage you are in a career, recognize that mentors can come in all shapes and sizes, right? It doesn't have to be this formalized relationship. I hear from students a lot. It's Oh, I don't have a mentor. And the reality is your professors can be your mentors. Your peers can be your mentors. I'll start with my parents were probably my first mentors probably still are today. Very always encouraged me to take risks, my risk averse person, but to the degree that it feels comfortable to take risks, I think professionally for me, I've had mentors of so many different varieties. I can think back to some of my earliest jobs. People that kind of called me out. One thing that I always try to teach students or I do a lot of teaching, mentoring students is it's okay to not know something. And that's a lesson I learned early in my career when I tried to, thought that I knew everything and clearly didn't. And somebody called me out and that became a mentorship, right? Is I think a good mentor is somebody that encourages you, but also like calls you out on certain things and pushes back and challenges you. I think professionally, some of my best mentors, again, people that either were my direct bosses, a lot of peers, people that had done things before me. The reality is in the hotel industry, there's a lot of things that are being done new, but more of the oldest industries in the world. And so I can learn a lot from people that have done it before, people that are doing it today. And so I've made a lot of connections that way. And then I also think as you crystallize what you want to do in your career or where you want to be or who you want to be around, find those people that appeal to you, whether it's people you've seen speak on podcasts like this, whether it's people you've seen speak in conferences, whether it's things you've read. I will say our industry, I've never been in other industries, but I think our industry is one of the more open ones and people have I've reached out to so many people and part of it is being in the role I'm in. I feel more confident to do that, but I feel like at any level you can, and people are willing to speak, just a couple, I don't want to call out specific people too much because I don't want to forget anybody, but like a couple people that have been so important to me. First, like our former CEO at JLL, Hilda one of the most impactful people I've ever been around. I met her years before I joined JLL, stayed connected. And that's how I ultimately ended up here. Just really incredible. And then my time at Marriott, I had so many just amazing mentors and again, people that are challenging you, but also encouraging you to see different paths forward that you might have not otherwise expected.

Rachel Humphrey: 15:17

I love that. It's interesting too. I like the part about formal and informal mentors and people telling you that they don't have them when they just maybe haven't identified someone as such. I mentioned earlier, you're one of mine because I can reach out to you. And I mentioned the public speaking, but I actually have reached out to you several times since then on other things as well. So really establishing those relationships of having a system of people you can call on for different things. You talked earlier about your curiosity and of all of the themes that we talk about on the podcast, that's probably the one that comes up the most is leaders telling us how they believe their curiosity has really driven their career. I know you consider yourself not only a lifelong learner, but a very curious person. Talk about how that has really impacted your career path and where you put it to use.

Zach Demuth: 16:07

Yeah, for sure. I think again, I know we've talked about a lot, but it kind of journey of getting here to me. I credit a lot of it with not just my own curiosity, but mentors that have pushed me to look in different places. I love to learn like when I was in college, I took extra classes and things that I had no interest in doing in my life just because I wanted that exposure. That's now it's, I guess it's nine years ago. It's a bit scary, but I went back and got my master's degree. Not because I thought it would necessarily help me earn more money, although that would be great. But really just because I wanted to learn more, I realized I didn't have the exposure to real estate. I spent my career to that point, all in sort of hotel operations on the management side. I was always fascinated and confused to some degree around how they decide to open hotels. Where they open them. And I realized I just had this massive hole and I could do all the reading I wanted, but to be able to go back to an educational institution surrounded by experts in the field, that was my best path forward. And so I went back to school strictly for that reason, just for curiosity, an amazing decision. In hindsight, I met some incredible people, talk about mentorship, networking. To me, that is the essence of hospitality. And I really learned that there. And then in my career, right? I think, one of the pieces of advice I try to give, again, students or people that I mentor and early in their career is it's just because something is the way it is, doesn't mean it has to be moving forward. I think we're often, particularly in big organizations. I've worked for two very large organizations and Marriott and JLL. There's a lot of processes. A lot of things are done the same way over and over. There's some of them for a reason, and some of them not. And I think for me, some of the ways I've been able to be successful in my career is. And to me that is questioning why things are done, that they have to be done in that way. And again, applying a curiosity to it. It doesn't mean you go in and saying it has to change, but question, look around, see if you can find people. And again, to me, that's curiosity. I always consider myself, somebody actually told me this word the other day, an intrapreneur. It's like an entrepreneur, but yeah, I guess it's an accepted word. And to me that is curiosity. If that's a curious person, right? You, whether you're an entrepreneur, clearly curious, then in my case, you work for a large organization, you have to be curious, you have to want to find new things, and I'll say just a last thought is I've changed jobs multiple times in my career, both within the same organization and elsewhere. And one of the impetus is for me wanting, getting to the point where I think I want to change jobs is if I'm not learning consistently in that job. Part of that is on you. I think. There's, when you start a new job, you're going to learn no matter what, but then to continue, you have to find, you have to be that kind of person that uncovers new rocks and tries to ask new questions. But at some point that is, not every job, but at some point that's going to go away. And so to me, anytime I feel like I'm, I've, my curiosity and I'm not able to find new things to learn. That's when I take the next step and try to figure out, is there another path I can go either in the organization, outside the organization, maybe adding additional responsibilities. But to me, that's what drives me. Some, somebody asked me recently, like what motivates me? A lot of things, but curiosity is definitely high on that list.

Rachel Humphrey: 19:15

I like the self awareness that goes along with that too, to say, I'm not sure I'm following through on the curiosity I have as far as has this role. Have I taken this role maybe as far as I can. Or is there something else out, but I'm actually going to question you on something because earlier you said, I am a very risk averse person. One thing I've realized about myself is I say that all the time, but some of the greatest successes I've had in my personal and professional life have been from the biggest risks that I've taken. You have switched roles. You've switched careers in the sense of the focus of your career. Many would identify those as big risks. How do you evaluate, especially as a risk averse person, how do you evaluate risk and really decide which ones are worth taking and what you're going to pass on?

Zach Demuth: 20:00

That's a good, that's a good point. I think, yeah, I've said I'm risk averse for so long that it's just. The party line. Yeah, you're right. I guess maybe a better way to describe is I'm very methodical. I, I can look back. There are some decisions I wish I would have made. And I think to myself, the reason I didn't is because I was fearful, which I equate to risk. But you're right. I definitely have made some changes, whether it was, taking a year off, essentially, and going back to school, giving up income, potentially. Negatively impacting my career. Obviously, I've done some things personally that are risky. And then yeah moved around when I was with Marriott I you know moved geographically multiple times to places. I'd never lived before which When I it's funny when I say that particularly to my wife who I didn't know at the time She looks at me like i'm crazy like, how could you move a city? You've never been to isn't that so scary and it's funny at the time. I didn't think of it that way But yeah, that is a huge risk to some capacity And then obviously when I left Marriott after, more than 10 years, that was definitely in some ways a risk. Although I look at it as very calculated, right? I went from a very well respected organization in Marriott to a, let's say, equally respected organization in JLL. For me, whenever I've made changes that I guess could be considered as risky, I always look at what are, very simply what are the upsides? And then I guess, what are the potential risks? I always have always been guided by similar principles I just discussed. Is it going to be something that's going to allow me to learn? That's going to allow me to learn new things, right? And part of that is the emphasis on you. You have to take self awareness, self ownership. Part of it is on the role in the organization. And I will say, as I've done more, either career changes or role changes or taking different steps, I think the work you do is important, but who you do it with, I would say is the most important thing. Maybe I don't work as many hours as I did when I was in, 10 years ago. I still work a lot of hours and I spent a lot of time with my co workers, both in person and virtually. And so it's really important to make a decision. That you are going to enjoy the to some degree the people you're with and to me that mitigates a lot of risk yes, obviously if you don't like what you're doing You're you know, you're not going to enjoy your time But if you don't like who you're doing it with I would say actually you're going to dislike it more So to me, I would say i'm methodical and maybe the risks i've taken are very calculated, but it all comes back to am I learning? Obviously at some point in your career there has to be a monetary component I'm not trying to dismiss that in any way And then who is it with and is it an organization that supports you? You I mean, I had always said that the position I'm in now is something I would aspire to in years from now. So the fact that I'm here is pinches me sometimes. But yeah, is it an organization supports you, your personal branding, and then you yourself can, excel in whatever you define as excelling.

Rachel Humphrey: 22:39

I think we have a new tagline. It's gonna be Zach Smith risk taker.

Zach Demuth: 22:45

Yeah, she tells my, to my parents. Yeah. My mom's always said I'm a risk taker, even though I define myself as risk averse.

Rachel Humphrey: 22:51

Interesting. Interesting. I want to switch over to work life harmony for a minute, because this used to be a question I think that was very traditionally asked of women. How do you manage both a demanding career and having a family? But it really applies in some ways to all of us. I did learn recently that you and I like to vacation or travel with our families to a similar same place. Talk a little bit about, you have a demanding travel schedule. As you mentioned, you work a lot of hours, you have a family. How do you. Find time to really focus in on the things that are important to you, both on the career front and on the home front. And has that evolved over time?

Zach Demuth: 23:29

Yeah, to answer the last part of your question first, it's definitely evolved, right? I think the advent or the acceptance really of virtual work has helped a lot, not just post COVID. I think in parts of the hotel industry, at least the parts I was in, that was to some degree accepted pre COVID, but obviously it's accelerated. As you said, I travel a lot. I think one thing that I learned early on is I got to go to some amazing places, and a lot of my friends would say, oh, you, you're, I worked in the Caribbean for a long time, and Oh, you get to be in the Caribbean. And not really yes, I get to be there, but like I'm in a windowless room or I can, it's worse if there is a window because like I'm not outside. And I was used to say that as a joke, although partly serious. And then somebody once said to me is okay, that's all true. Yes, you are working and. You're not on the beach, but like, why don't you take a day and be on the beach? Why don't at the time I had a girlfriend, now you're my wife, my family. Like, why don't you take advantage? Yes, you're not going to diminish the work you do, but blend the two things you love. I joined the hospitality industry in some sense, because I love to travel. And like I said, at the beginning, Experience the world in different ways. Do that to your capacity, you can like, we work in an amazing industry. And so I will say that's something I've really embraced over the last five or six years. And yeah not every trip by any stretch. But when it's possible, I think. Work does take me some amazing places. And so to prioritize that, I also think, and again, this is probably not unique to hotels, but work is never done. Whether it's on your phone whatever the case might be, anyone can reach you. You're always going to more emails. My, my wife's mom tragically passed away very early last year. And she always says she would trade all the meetings that she went to, she would have traded all those for another few days with her mom. And that to me is like really hit home. And I have some friends similarly passed away young. And so somebody said to me, are you going to remember this email in a week? No, a month. Definitely not all that stuff. So to me, I just think you have to prioritize what's important and also take advantage of some of the amazing things that this industry offers. And particularly if you like those, and Take the advantage to the degree that you're able to

Rachel Humphrey: 25:30

wow. I appreciate that. That's tremendous advice And i'm really glad that you shared that when we talk about Maybe times that are changing a little bit You were talking about a little bit more of virtual or remote work some of these other aspects of post covid One of the things that i've really noticed is coming out of covid. There's a real renewed focus on self care and wellness whether that is related to a work life balance, whether it's related to other things. Talk a little bit about your self care wellness strategies plan. Is that again something that's evolved over time?

Zach Demuth: 26:05

Yeah, for sure. I think again, travel takes a toll on you. As you well know you're getting on a plane, like no matter where you're going, like it's exhausting and it takes a toll on your body and everything else. I think Prioritizing time individually is super important. I'll credit my wife with this. She meditates almost every morning. I definitely don't do it every day, but the few days a week that I do it, I find it just really grounding. It helps me personally. And also I think with my work. So I think, again, I think as I've learned in my career, you're going to spend so much time working, you're going to spend a lot of time working with other people and I look up to other people in the way they carry themselves. It's obvious, but then I realized people probably look up to me. And so in some ways, the way you do your work is as important, if not more important than the work you do. And you can only do your work well, the way you do it. If you yourself have some level of groundness, some of self care. And so different for everybody, but for me, it's like, whether it's some form of meditation, whether it's some form of kind of taking breaks, but it's really important recognizing I look up to so many people are as much as I don't really believe it all the time, recognizing people are also. Looking up to me to some capacity.

Rachel Humphrey: 27:18

It's so important to hear you talk about modeling that behavior for others, because if others see that you give yourself permission to meditate or make a break or reset or whatever it is, then it grants them maybe the confidence to do the same thing. Zach, much like every time I call you for advice and information, I could talk with you all day about a million things, but we are going to run out of time. So I want to ask two last quick questions. Our regular listeners know that my favorite question to ask is our advice to our younger selves, because I really think that we're all works in progress. And part of that is reflection. As you sit here today, what do you tell 21 year old Zach about either how things will play out for you over time or something that may have made your journey a little bit easier for you if you knew it then?

Zach Demuth: 28:08

Yeah, I think first. Where you end up and where I ended up, years later is totally different than when I thought I would have ended up at age 21. So I think the advice to give myself, it's okay to not know. I feel like I pressured myself a lot, whether it was in college, post college, earlier in my career, to know exactly what I wanted to do next. To know the answer to every question in the room, as an example. I think, I wish I would have told myself, it's okay, and in fact, it's going to end up great. The decisions you make, one way or the other, are, some are very challenging, some maybe not where you want it to be, but really challenging. really positive, but take the pressure off yourself. And I'll say, I talked to a lot of students who feel like I asked them what are they interested in? And it's they've rehearsed this really well manicured answer. And I did the same, but it's okay. It's okay to not know. And it's funny thinking about it, I'd say I am more, risk tolerant than I thought, but I think there are some decisions to maybe I could have been even more tolerant of risk, right? So it's okay to not know, and it's okay to try things that maybe you don't think you like, don't think they'll end up in the place you want it to. But, wherever you end up, that path seems to have worked out.

Rachel Humphrey: 29:19

I'd be interested in talking to Zach, food journalist, and seeing what advice he would have for me the next time that I see you. As we wrap up today in thinking about DEI advisors and our motto of empowering personal success, is there a final nugget of wisdom that you would share with our listeners? I

Zach Demuth: 29:40

think it goes back to what I was saying before. First, be open to possibilities, say yes to opportunities. You have to put yourself in opportunities way, but you have to say yes and have a level of confidence in what you're doing. I think, again I struggle with self doubt all the time, as you mentioned, so many leaders do, but whatever it is you're doing, you're an expert in that. You're going to become an expert in that and have that level of confidence. But say yes to opportunities, it's okay to not know. And then question norms. I think that level of curiosity is just so important.

Rachel Humphrey: 30:09

That's such a great place to wrap up, especially with the questioning norms. Zach, thank you so much. I know you have a lot of ways you can spend your day. I'm super appreciative of you choosing to spend it. With us. But thank you for your leadership and thank you for the impact that you've had, as I mentioned a couple of times on me personally but thank you for joining us.

Zach Demuth: 30:28

Thank you so much, Rachel. I really, truly am touched and honored that you invited me today

Rachel Humphrey: 30:33

and to our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you will visit us at DEI advisors. org to hear from nearly 200 other industry leaders as they also share their journeys and the insights they've learned along the way. Thanks for joining us.