It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Mary Li, Founder and CEO, Atlas, interviewed by David Kong

• David Kong

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Mary Li is a visionary entrepreneur and icon in the airline industry. In this interview, she shares her career journey and important lessons in entrepreneurship. She offers advice on leadership, taking risks, and overcoming setbacks. We discuss shifting the mindset from competition to collaboration and how she overcomes the "Imposter Syndrome." Mary also shares tips on self-care and the need to be honest in accepting ourselves.

David Kong:

Greetings, I'm David Kong, the founder and principal of DEI Advisors. We are a non profit organization dedicated to self empowerment. Today, we're delighted to welcome Mary Li to our show. Mary is a visionary. entrepreneur and the founder and CEO of Atlas. Atlas is a well known travel platform that empowers consumers to make wise decisions with its rich content. With its superior technology, it boasts partnerships with over 200 airlines. It is a great pleasure to welcome you to the show, Mary.

Mary Li:

Hi, David. Thank you for having me on the show today. It's a great honor,

David Kong:

You have had a very fascinating career journey. You were the founder of two very successful companies. You were the co CEO of Mystify. You also headed up air tickets for Alibaba, and also you have done a lot of other wonderful things in your career. Would you mind to share some highlights of your journey and some of the lessons that you learned along the way?

Mary Li:

Before I share the highlights of my career, I need to talk a little bit about my background. I grew up like millions of Chinese kids, in China, studying hard hard, and having a competitive grade, and under the Chinese education system was the only future for us in 1970 and 1980. I think it's still now. But luckily, I was very good at mathematics. I don't know why, but I was just passionate on that. I was obsessed on learning mathematics by myself. I even didn't remember whether, when I was a kid, I went outside to play. I just stay at home to do all the mathematics. So I finished advanced mathematics. Around like a college level when I was 12, you can see I was a nerd of some sort.

David Kong:

That's fantastic.

Mary Li:

Yeah. Life is dramatic. So after I graduated, I had been a full time housewife for almost eight years. Unbelievable, right? Yeah. I started to work quite late. The first job I did was a receptionist because no one would like to hire me. But life is still dramatic. When I was 43, I sold my second data processing company, Aslan, to Alibaba Group, and became the head of air tickets for Alibaba. Today, the top three largest online travel platform, the name is called Flyggy. I built the entire business sector from scratch to become number two in China, less than one year. Free card. It's the highlights of my career. I launched the first app of global air tickets. At the same time, life continued to be dramatic. Then I left China when traveling on my own and before joining Misty Fly as a co CEO. I moved to India for almost two years and it was incredible time of personal growth. In 2019, I came to Singapore, I launched the third startup company of myself, Atlas. I can say I'm very happy with where I am now. The key lessons I'd like to share with all the audience today. I have to say, my daughter Xinyu is also in the audience. I love you so much. It is never too late to start. Look at me! I started my career when I was 33. I launched a new company when I was almost 50. It is never late, huh? I'm 53. I'm so beautiful. I think secondly, it doesn't matter, and a small company you are working in, the big corporates you are working in, it matters whether you are doing the right things. Your business has purpose. Your job has purpose. Whether it creates value for the world, it is the meaning that makes you truly happy for longer time. And another lesson, I think is you can't have a perfect life. You have to sacrifice something to achieve something. I had to sacrifice my health when I worked too hard. I had to sacrifice the time I could have to spend with Xinyu. I had to sacrifice a lot of time I could spend with my parents and my personal entertainment. And it's okay. It's okay. You can't be successful. You can't be great. At everything at the same time, just tell yourself it's okay. That's all. That

David Kong:

was a absolutely wonderful lesson that you shared and so heartfelt. Really appreciate you doing that. And what a fascinating journey you've had. Very impressed to hear your story. Now, what's also impressive is the fact that you launched your current company, Atlas, at the height of the pandemic. It's a travel company, and yet you launched it during a time when Almost all the borders were closed and air travel was almost non existent, especially in Asia. And yet you said the pandemic has liberated entrepreneurs. What courage you had at that time. And tell us why you said that.

Mary Li:

I have been a startup entrepreneur, if we use the word entrepreneur, for 20 years. So there's a Chinese idiom in my mind all the time. It is It means, you choose a life, you are always walking on ice. It's my choice. And I believe that pandemic was a good reminder to all the Panther entrepreneurs that you should never be fully relaxed. And you are happy today, and you have some surprise happening in the afternoon. It's always something, and it is what makes the entrepreneurial journey so special. If I have the second time in my life, I also will choose the life of entrepreneur, because you have to accept all these challenges as part of your normal life. And I always seek for new solutions, new ways of doing. So when pandemic happens, it's part of your normal life. It's just a little bit of a big surprise. It's me, all the time, Roo Bo Bing, and walking on ice, every day. This is my choice.

David Kong:

How profound, and I don't think a lot of people can accept that way of living. It's always being so Uncertain about the future. We're going to touch on that in a little bit, that subject of risk taking, but let's just follow up on your comments about what it takes to be successful as entrepreneurs. You founded two very successful companies. So in your mind, what does it take to be successful as an entrepreneur? Very

Mary Li:

good question. In fact, I don't have a word successful in my mind. I think first of all, we have to define what it means to be a successful entrepreneur. I might be successful in front of you, in front of lots of people, but am I successful in my mind? And four to five years ago, or maybe six or seven years ago, I didn't feel like I'm a successful entrepreneur, especially in 2014. It seems. I was so successful in all the people's eyes. My company was acquired by Alibaba and they built. A online travel platform in such a short time. I was a Lexie in travel industry in China. But the same year, I lost my mother in law. I lost two brothers in law. I could not sleep. I asked myself, Oh my God, Mary. You're such a horrible person. You're such a selfish person. I was isolated. I feel so lonely. Because everybody thought Mary was busy. Mary was in the meetings. None of them reach out to me. None of them have ever thought about, I call Mary, even Mary can't be there, but Mary does have money. Mary can help them to seek for better doctors. But nobody called me because of Mary. Mary was busy. I look at the mirror. I was so lonely. So I have to ask everybody's a question. When you are successful in a lot of people's eyes, are you really feel, do you really feel You are successful. But today, I feel like I'm successful even Atlas is a small startup company because I'm working with a group of people sharing the same vision, same mission, through running the business, we contributing to the society, we make ourselves. being a better human being. So I'm happy every day to go into the office to say hi to Nick, to say hi to Jasmine, and to talk to each other, and we are doing something. Even if it's small, we are trying to connect all the people in the world through travel. It doesn't matter. It's big. It matters. We are doing something. I think that is successful.

David Kong:

Goes back to the point you were making earlier, you've got to have purpose in what you do. And following up on the thought that you shared, the Chinese saying, it really translates into walking on thin ice. It ties into the theme of risk taking. A lot of successful leaders that we've interviewed has said that you have to have an appetite for risk taking. You have to be willing to take risks to move ahead. And as an entrepreneur, you've actually taken it to the highest level. You've taken a lot of risks as an entrepreneur. And I like what you said about walking on thin ice because Means that you have to be alert all the time and expect that unexpected. And it reminds me of Jeff Bezos saying, It's always day one. He's referring to Amazon being a startup. And although 20 years later, Amazon was so successful, he still says it's always day one, and it's remind him that he always has to be alert and he always have the mentality of a startup. And it's very similar to what you're saying. Can you share some thoughts on risk taking?

Mary Li:

Sure. But as I mentioned, I have a background in mathematics, and a lot of people thought I'm like a calculation machine. In mathematics. And I calculate possibilities. And same, I don't have the word risk in my mind, in my vocabulary at all. I don't think about risks. I like to prepare. You could ask my daughter. She's exactly the same as me. We prepared. We always do homework. I prepare for my meetings. I do research. I try to understand all the options, pros and cons. And I started to calculate all the possibilities. And there are the options in front of me, in my mind, and I pick up one and make the decision. And when I make the decisions, I don't think about the risks because I accept my choice. I always believe there is no such thing as a zero risk game. You always need to make a decision and stick with it. So in my personal life, It's same. In 2016, when I made decision to quit my senior executive role at Alibaba, is that risk thing? I never thought about that and everybody was shocked because I had brilliant career in front of me and have a strong networks built by decades. And I was 45, a middle aged Chinese woman. But I wasn't happy and I asked myself again and again, Who I am? What I'm really looking for? Why I sacrificed to be here? Where am I five years later? Who I would be five years later? Is that really a win something? If I stay, would I really win? Once I figured all these things out, it was an easy decision for me. I bought the ticket, and I packed a small bag and went to see the work. For two years, solo travel. I wasn't thinking about, I wasn't thinking about the risk at all. And I think this is how I think about risk.

David Kong:

Wow, that's just absolutely fascinating to hear you share your story. Now let's talk about setbacks and disappointments. We've all had our fair share of them, especially when you're successful. You must have encountered some setbacks and disappointments along the way. What can you say about your setbacks and disappointments and how you summoned the fortitude? and the resilience to overcome them.

Mary Li:

Can I be honest to you? I continue to be disappointed in myself every day. Continued. And, but I still remember one of my best friends he's in America now and he told me you have to learn how to forgive yourself and forget the past and move on. So what I learned for decades I learned to forgive. I learned to forgive myself. I learn every evening, have to let it go, and I learn. I have to go to sleep. Nothing is important. Just go to sleep. And sleep, maybe it's not an issue for some people, but sleeping is actually a big issue for me. I guess big issue for lots of women. So I read lots of books about sleeping, revolutionary, how to sleep. But still, trouble in sleep. When I sleep well, I can think well, I can communicate well, I can eat well. Not so complicated things, and help me, if we use the word survive to be today, only three things. Forgive yourself and let it go. Don't you sleep. Everything will be good when you wake up.

David Kong:

That's wonderful. And it's a good segue to this next topic about self care. Self care is important to all of us, but especially for entrepreneurs, you're responsible for so many people. You've got to take the time to refill your lantern so it can shine brighter for other people. What are your tips on self care aside from forgiving yourself and making sure you get a good night's sleep?

Mary Li:

Ah, the first thought in my mind about self care, don't laugh David. I think I'm not really a self care person because I don't cook. I'm so bad in housekeeping. I'm always so mess person. I don't like pack on pack and I always... lost this, lost that. And you can't imagine every morning I wake up, oh, where's my socks? I don't think I'm like in a way, I'm a self care person. I don't know how to iron clothes. When I was in Harvard, in OPM, one of my leading group... A classmate asked me, Mary, could you help me to iron my clothes? I said, oh my gosh, how can I help you to iron your clothes? I even don't know how to iron my clothes. Could you pay for something and even iron my clothes? So I don't think I'm so far some self care person. But in another way, a really self care person. Because as a startup owner, as an entrepreneur, It's a marathon. It's a long journey. I have to make myself, every day, be good. So I'm a very self disciplined person. I go to the gym as much as I can, every day. You can't imagine, I'm such a gym fan. So I have three weeks training. Don't laugh. Every week, and I do boxing twice a week. I do pilates twice a week. I go to last Sunday, I went to trail running, I do hiking yeah I do all, I do the exercise like every day as much as I can, but the more important thing I meditate. Twice a day and every morning when I wake up, I even close my eyes and I went and just sit there and go to sit there and started to meditate. It's as normal as brush on my teeth and meditate and in my work. But I find another unique. If I say that's self care, As a female entrepreneur, especially in China, it was a really tough situation. And China is a very, social, intellect, business environment. And people used to drink maotai, and drink alcohol. It's a kind of a special way. Maybe it's a way most of the business do. And you heard a lot of bad stories. Hoo hoo! So I have a special self care way. I like to read books. Especially, I like to do time travel. I always read novels. I like to travel with Jumpa Lahiri to go to lowland. I like to read books by Murakami to go into a world. I sit in my balcony with 1Q84 and it was so quiet. It was so dark, and I look at the sky, there are two moons in the sky, two moons, I can see two moons in the sky, and I can fly in the sky, and I can do whatever, it's so pure. So childish, so naive word, if you use the word, it is me, and all the time, to make myself, I live in my fairy tales. I'm still a person, full of love with the world. And sometimes when I have dinner with friends, In China, with my daughter, when they talk about something, when they talk about some negative stories, news, I was so confused to look at them, what they were talking about, and my daughter just laughing. So look at my mom's face. It's true. She doesn't understand what they are talking about. And she doesn't know it's so true. That's her. And she's so naive. And she's so childish. That's so me. This is the unique way I am still me. And, yeah, I don't know. I guess this is a way I self care myself. So I read every day and read all kinds of novels and do time traveling and go to dinosaur world. And, yeah, I even read dinosaur books because I have a sweetheart, Holland, in New Zealand. I want to talk to him about dinosaurs. So all the things and make me still curiosity still and still me. Is that called self care?

David Kong:

that's all self care because you are giving yourself a break from the hustle bustle of everything that you've got to do every single day. I've heard people talk about going to the gym and even boxing as a way to release their stress and I've heard people say it's wonderful to meditate or to do yoga. I've not heard anyone talk about time travel and living in the metaverse through your imagination from reading. That's a first. But that is fascinating and makes a lot of sense to me. Now, you made a comment that airlines need to shift their mindset from competition. Collaboration. And I love that because that applies not just to the business world, to our personal lives as well. We need a shift from competition to collaboration. Can you elaborate? What are your thoughts?

Mary Li:

I can't agree more, David. There are lots of big words and big theory about competition or collaboration. I guess everybody has heard about that. I think a business is not that different from life, really. And business is like a reflection of yourself. I imagine you pass through a building. This building has been built by thousands, millions of decisions were made by you and your team. So the company who likes to compete, who embrace the collaboration, It's the decision by the people, by the team. If you believe and really value friendships, community, partnerships in life, there's no reason why you can't embrace these values in business. I do believe in the power of collaboration. I just don't know why I guess I was born like that. And a lot of people are surprised I am today. Because they think they are much smarter than me. And why? And I told them, I collaborate. I only do the things I'm good at. And I let other people do other things they're good at. And in Atlas, It's too obviously. Normally I don't join most of the team's meetings. I always believe, oh, I'm so proud of my team. My team are much better than me in lots of places. And if they're better than me, why I need to do those things I'm not good at? I'm a CEO. I want to focus on what I should do. So for our industry, it's the same as... My person, same as Atlas would we believe, it's ecosystem, only ecosystem. Everybody can have well, better life, why we need be so horrible to compete each other, to be enemies. For airlines the time has changed, compared with 30 years ago. And the consumer behavior change. There are so many, even for payment. There are so many think tech companies and the full technology solution. There are so many technology solution providers and even check GBT, a check GBT completely change the interact way between consumer and the. The airlines, the distribution channel for AI, for big data, for those algorithms. Why airlines wants to do everything by themselves? I think it's silly. If I use the word, no offense. No, you're

David Kong:

saying just quote shifting the mindset from competition to collaboration is to me profound and wise and your examples absolutely right on and the world is changing so fast in business. It's better to collaborate. This generative AI has the ability to change everything, and we're going to learn to work together rather than look at one another as competitors. Now, I want to ask you a question about, the Imposter Syndrome. Because there were so many examples of you being put in uncomfortable situations, difficult situations. You were born and raised in China, and you weren't brought up to speak English, and you speak beautiful English at this point. And, at that time, you were all of a sudden put in charge of Fliggy, the Alibaba travel platform, and you have to travel the world when you didn't speak English very well. And you were put in a lot of very difficult, stressful situations. And you were always yourself, and you always did a magnificent job. Have you ever felt the imposter syndrome? You're not really good enough, you're just pretending to be good? And if so, how do you overcome that negative self talk?

Mary Li:

Before I start to share, I have to say again, Xinyu, I love you so much. My daughter. I feel like an imposter very often. If I cry, I don't think that there's a way to fully overcome it. It is a process. Not a destination. You have to tell yourself, it's a life journey. There's no magic pill to take and heal yourself. I had a major mental crisis last year, and to be honest, in 2022, it was a really hard year for me. Although I look very good, I was happy. I seemed very happy in front of my teams. I joined so many conferences. I travel the world. I still remember last year, October, I was at a conference. I was on the stage with the three airline executives. And we were sharing about distribution, embrace the change. I felt I performed so bad. I let all the people down. And when I looked at my team's face, I completely crushed. So that was the most That was the darkest time. I went back to the hotel and could not sleep. I feel like I'm a, I like a fraud. And I continue, could not stop crying. I feel like I was a, I feel like a fraud. I was a liar and I was so bad. I am not good enough. I let everybody down. So I text my daughter and friends that night. And I love you so much. My daughter had told me back quickly, and she said, Ma, you have a post symptom. Please Google it. Learn it. I still remember the night I called Willem, my chief technology officer. I completely, and I started to blame him. It was all because why you could not do this well. And I got a resignation letter from my finance manager. So that, that was so true. That was a nightmare. And I could not admit, I couldn't admit I wasn't feeling well. And I couldn't accept. I was experiencing a mentally health crisis and I couldn't accept it. I was depressed and felt so down. I kept pushing and blaming myself. And my daughter encouraged me and continued to call me and COVID. Why you feel you are okay? Please go to see a therapist. Go to seek professional help. I thought I wasn't ready, but I love her so much. So I think she's right. So I started to seek professional therapist. And my daughter continue to tell me, It is okay. You need to meet several... A therapist, until you feel safe, until you feel comfortable, you meet someone and luckily I met my therapist and I started to have a quite half a year and therapy session. You can't believe and at the first several sessions. I just didn't talk. I just couldn't stop crying. I don't know why I was so sad. I, it's something wrong with me, but why I was so sad. And I have to pretend I'm happy, I'm good. But after session by session, I started feeling better. I started feeling happier again, and I still remember my therapist Georgia told me, Hey Mary, can you see? You are smiling. You are laughing. You change. Oh, that's true. I did I did change. I did start to laugh and smile. That's so I think acknowledge. You have a mental issue and go to therapy, what I can share. But the most important thing I want to share, I want to use this opportunity to thank those important people in my team and in my life. With the right people around you, it's the most important way to overcome the imposter syndrome or mentally crisis. I have to say thank you, Marijke, and you never judge me. From the beginning, we worked together. Marijke is Atra's Chief Marketing Officer, and the first day we started work, and her beautiful face, and her beautiful smile, always be with me. She never judges me. She always sees my potential. And she told me, you were the best CEO I've... I have met so many big CEOs in the world, but you are the best. Believe in you, Mary. And we always tell each other we love each other. And I really want to say thank you to Sophia, my PR manager. She's straightforward to say, Mary, you should do this, you should do that. And I have a fantastic team, Brian. A Irish guy, but he has worked with me for more than two years and she supported me all the time. And I have a special Chinese leaders team. I have to say thank you, Zhang Wei. And Zhang Wei is my co founder. It's just very, he's very nerd person. He even doesn't know how to express his feeling to his family. But. He texted me when I feel bad. He said, Mary, you are the best woman and ever in my life. I believe in you so much, please. Please. So even, I'm around with a group of people and this year this year, April and June, I was crushed again. I got serious sick even after I had therapist session. It's a life journey. When I crushed, when I was crushed, when I was in that moment, I can pick up the phone. To call my team. I can call my daughter. I can call Marika. And when I was in Barcelona in June, I even could not breathe. And I called Shirley, my CFO. And I text Biram and Nick. And, I have been with a group of people and Clive and Griffin and my lovely Chinese teams. And my lovely global teams. They're there. They're always with me. They accept who I am. They allow me to cry. They allow me to be up and down. I don't know, some names I might forget. And my dearest friend, Heidi, and all those people who never judge me, who be with me. So be with the right people, not be with the best people. Not be with successful people be with white people and to share to feel like you always have someone who accept who you are.

David Kong:

That's wonderful advice. You walk the talk because you are obviously very genuine, and you are willing to share your deepest thoughts with them and you inspire such love and respect for you in return. You put together a wonderful support network starting with your daughter and sounds like you have a fabulous team that also are willing to go to bat for you. And it's just so wonderful to see. Mary, I'm so sorry we are running out of time, and I feel like I can just talk to the whole day, but regrettably, we've already gone way past the time that we have allowed. I wanted to say thank you for being so sincere and so heartfelt in all your comments. You are such a wonderful, fabulous person and I have new found respect for you after this conversation. I just admire you so much. Thank you. And I appreciate you taking the time to be on our show.

Mary Li:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank all the audience. being here today with me. Thank you, David. Have a good day.

David Kong:

And for our audience, I really appreciate your tuning in. And if you enjoyed the show, I hope you can join us on our website, DEIadvisors. org. And there you would find plenty other interviews and we wish you good luck in your personal empowerment. Thank you again. Bye.