DEI Advisors Podcast

Nelson Boyce, Managing Director, Travel, Google Interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

May 08, 2023 David Kong
DEI Advisors Podcast
Nelson Boyce, Managing Director, Travel, Google Interviewed by Dorothy Dowling
Show Notes Transcript

Nelson details his distinct career journey from Payne Weber as an investment banker, Viacom and other media companies and how that has led him to his current career in the travel industry. During that career journey he shares the impact mentors had on his career and how a few hours with Quincy Jones had a profound impact on how he viewed his approach to mastering a career.  He relates his own journey and how he has grown to appreciate the value and importance of understanding and valuing the people you work with and the customers you serve; the importance of authenticity and agility in leadership and how critical having and communicating a clear vision and values are to both personal and team success.

Dorothy Dowling:

Greetings. I am Dorothy Dowling, a principal of D E I advisors. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to personal empowerment. I am delighted to welcome Nelson Boyce, managing director of travel to our d e I show. Nelson, welcome to our show. It is such an honor to have you with us today,

Nelson Boyce:

Dorothy. I'm honored to be here and on a personal note, it's such an absolute pleasure to see you, my friend.

Dorothy Dowling:

Thank you. Right back at you. So Nelson, we'd like to start with your career because it truly has been amazing. Yes. You have worked at so many innovative and significant media brands and now with Google. And obviously you're leading the travel vertical, but I'm wondering if you would mind sharing your career history with us and how each of your positions enhance your journey to becoming such a strategic and valued media SEC media executive in the travel category.

Yes. Thank you. And certainly. I'll spare you all of the minute details of my of my history cuz it's been a relatively long one. And certainly travel was not necessarily a destination, no pun that I had in my mind. Along the journey. But I'm happy to talk to you a little bit about how I made the decisions and why I made decisions at certain parts of that journey. So I've been at Google now for almost eight years. Most recently co-leading the US travel advertising partnerships that we have at Google. Prior to that while still at Google, I managed the relationship that Google has with Publius Group in the us. Prior to coming to Google, I spent about 12 and a half years with Viacom. So all of the, what used to formally be called M t V Networks once upon a time with big brands like M T v, Nickelodeon and Comedy Central. But most recently I'd been east Coast SVP of sales for them at B e t And then before that, spent the vast majority of that time with Nickelodeon in various capacities. Most recently having been leading the ad sales strategy and business development group within ad sales at Nick. And then varied other positions inclusive of managing the digital ad sales for Nickelodeon's portfolio managing the ad sales both. Digital and linear for Tnic, which was the teen targeted property, fits nicely in between Nickelodeon and M T V and then before that running their new business endeavors. And then prior to my kind of realm in the cable television space spent the vast majority or a good amount of my time in the magazine business, something that very few of us still remember what those things are. But it was really where I cut my teeth in the business. And did some stints with both heart honey and Heart and Soul Magazines as well as as well as blaze Magazine and Vibe before that. And so been a long kind of career in those places. And then investment banking before that was, which is really the foundation for understanding how businesses work. I was in mergers and acquisitions. At Payne Weber, which is now recognized broadly as ubs. And that's really where I, I. Foundationally both understood the mechanisms of how companies are kind of work, being able to be in a position of both, either building up companies for sale or breaking down companies for divestiture. That's been the career trajectory. I think in all of those things, there's some level of sales and marketing that comes into play. Even if you're in finance you're trying to figure out how you make these numbers most attractive for potential investors. If you're in direct to consumer in the magazine business, you're trying to figure out how many different ways can I say 50% off, two for one, whatever that may be. But there are all these different mechanisms of selling that are involved in that. And outside of things like construction, I think in the space of selling, it's one of the very few jobs where you can see the fruits of your labor manifest themselves in media that ultimately gets placed across. Solutions and platforms that you can take a lot of ownership in, right? There's an incrementality to the notion of, had it not been for me, being involved with that partner, that campaign, that ad or whatever may not have found found its home in, on one of our, on one of our properties. And so I take a lot of pride in, in, in being able to do that. And certainly with travel I take a lot of pride in having a small part. And trying to help and create unbelievable memories that people will carry around for for the entirety of their lives. So it's been a, it's been a nice journey a along the way. And as a client on the other side of the table, Nelson, in terms of someone that has such great respect for people that are in the profession of sales and creating those mutual values in terms of allowing people to tell their story through stories. Through media properties. It truly is where you have to bring a lot of strategic thinking. You have to have a deep knowledge of the brand Yes. And try to understand their audiences and really help them connect the dots in terms of how to really leverage the properties that you bring to market. Your career is truly amazing because I'm a fan of a lot of those media properties that you represented over the years and quite honestly, they were part of our media buy. And it was always because they brought such strong audience value to us, and then it is ability to really use that media in terms of the narrative that you wanna bring to those audiences. Yes. So thank you. I know that you've had amazing mentors and allies throughout your career. Yes, Nelson. And I'm wondering if there's any particular stories that you might be able to share that were transformational on your career journey. Oh my goodness. There, there are two points in time that I think Were extremely helpful in helping to craft my mindset in, in, in my approach. All with a foundation of having luckily and gratefully two, two parents who were north stars for for those things as well. But I will say there are two kind of moments that I had that I can remember very clearly. One was when I first got into management. And Dorothy, admittedly, I was like the Alec Baldwin character and Glen Gary, Glen Ross, who very much came in with a fire and brimstone, one size fits all type of attitude. And I was all, always about we, we've gotta hit the numbers and treated my, the entirety right of my direct reports. With kind of a broad brush, right? And really didn't pay attention to the nuance of each individual, to the notion of of having to respect people and meet them where they are so that you can really nurture them and find out those levers, right? That you can push or pull in order to try to get the right outcomes while having people feel valued. While having them feel seen and while having them feel heard. Now as a, as I've already articulated, you clearly understand I did not have an understanding of this and it was my mentor. At the time, my boss, my sales manager, a guy named Lynn Burnett who said, Nelson, lemme tell you something. You you've got the potential to be a great manager. You clearly were a great salesperson. And we believe in you in terms of the things that you're capable of. What you're not gonna see is those people that you are addressing believe in you. Because you are trying to brush them with a broad brush, right? And you're painting them with a broad brush rather in, in terms of your approach, right? You are going to have people jumping off the cliff because of you and not for, not in support of you. And until you figure out how to change that dynamic, that approach and really think about how to. Create more of a be bespoke engagement with the people that are going to be, to help you achieve the business goals and objectives and their own personal development professional, goals and objectives. You're gonna have some, you're gonna have some trouble. So that was a, a inflection point for me in terms of whoa. Okay. That was just some straight feedback. By the way, feedback is a gift. And it was so meaningful to me because it really put me on the right trajectory. The second moment, which was incredible which is around the same time quite honestly, is I had the opportunity to shadow Quincy Jones, the incredible prolific Quincy Jones. At a concert that we threw at Vibe Magazine. So I had this opportunity to pretty much be his gopher for about three to four hours, and I jumped on the opportunity. And so when given that opportunity, I was, I just I said, Hey man, we've got this time together. I hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple questions. Yeah, man, in, in Quincy voice. Yeah, man. Go ahead. And so I said, Quincy, how do you become Quincy Jones? Like, how does that happen? And he said, young brother. He said, all I wanted to do was to be the best jazz trumpet player possible. That's it. That's all I wanted to do. And I was like, man, Mo, knowing what he has accomplished, that seemed like a very narrow kind of answer for what he gave. But then he elaborated, he went on, he said, when I did that, then the next thing you know, this guy Frank Sinatra comes along, and now I'm composing for his big band. I'm leading his big band. And then those things led to me meeting this young guy, Michael Jackson, who ultimately I went on to, produce a few of his albums, some of which are arguably the best albums on the face of the planet of all time. And then I met this guy named Steven and this woman named Oprah. And we created this movie called The Color Purple. And I met this guy from South Philly, who was probably a better actor than he was a rapper, and we created The Fresh Prince. But he said all of that to say, That sometimes it's important for you to not get so far over your skis in terms of thinking about what that thing is that you want down the road versus being able to be present in the moment to master and to excel at the thing that you are doing right now in being the best at that thing. And he says when you do that, It unlocks all of these opportunities, some of which you didn't even plan on, things that you weren't even expecting to start coming your way, because there is a consistency of passion, of respect of the business, of attention to detail, of mastering a craft. These are kind of aspects and attributes that are transferrable regardless of what line of business you find yourself in. That are general, kind of foundational moments that you just have to have in order to be prepared for when those opportunities do come to take yourself to the next level. And I, so for me, those are two moments, both in thinking about how to lead with humility, vulnerability, trans, transparency. And And nuance to the second part of really just being in the moment. Don't think about the end title. Don't think about the end game. If you play the game right in the middle, a lot of these things ultimately reveal themselves to you over time. Nelson, I don't know if I'm more in envy of you having a mentor like Leo Burnett, who of course is of the most spoken about icons in the advertising space. Nolin Lynn Burnett, not Leo. Sorry. That would be a whole different, ok. But Lynn is a, in his own, is an icon in his own right. Thank you. But I do, I love that story about people being with you or jumping off the cliff because of you, because I do think that speaks to a lot of leadership challenges today that the person that you work for is so critical in terms critical of your engagement and commitment to your work. I love that analogy. And then also just the mastery of your craft in the present. And making sure that you are really bringing the best that you can every day to your work, I think, are amazing lessons because I do think sometimes we do get ahead of ourselves and do get over our skis in a way instead of really focusing on the present and doing Absolutely. And bring our best every day. So thank you. And speaking of that lesson I know it, it leads into, because I've had the privilege obviously of working with Google for many years and Yes. You have built remarkable teams throughout your career, but I just know how your teammates the regard they have for you and oh goodness how much they feel it is a privilege to be on your team. So I'm wondering if you can share beyond this story that you shared about what your secrets are. To being such a strong people leader. Yeah. I use some of the adjectives in regard to the engagement that I had, around getting the feedback from Lynn Burnett. But I, and I will tell you that I do think there is there's a couple things in that recipe, right? So when I think about the attributes that good leaders that they show up with. By the way, it's always a work in progress, right? No one's perfect. These are things that you c clearly have to think about and work at. But I, I think of the word authenticity. I think of the word agility, right? Because and listen, you and I have been in, in an area of the business that we know you've gotta be able to pivot and, you've gotta be able to make moves. In order to, in some cases, just straight out survive, right? Authenticity agility, transparency, vulnerability. I think many people think, vulnerability is a weakness. I find it to be precisely the opposite. I think when people can. Feel the true empathy that you have in many cases for their circumstances and your ability to then articulate similar circumstances, I think brings creates a certain amount of trust and loyalty. That is hard to. And, and if you're doing it with authenticity, I think that really organically creates a a very strong type of relationship. And being consistent, the notion of communication communicating as often and as early as possible. Largely Dorothy around explaining the why. Why it is that we show up, why it is that we're doing what we're doing, why it's important. And so that brings me to the second parts beyond some of the DEF definitions, which is why I think it's so massively important to help people explain that the why through having a very clear vision, a very clear mission, and a very clear set of values. The vision is the desired outcome, the desired instate, right? Making it up. If we're looking at December 31st, 2023, what things would then need to be true, right? Or what? What do we wanna be able to say about ourselves at that point in time? That's the desired outcome. The desired state, right? The how is the mission? What are the things that we're going to employ? In terms of making sure that we are on track or, how we go about our business to get to that desired instate. And then the values are what are the things we believe in, right? How do we treat one another? Is there respect involved? Do we have psychological safety? Does everybody feel as though that their voice is being, heard and are they being seen? And a, look, fun is a big part of it as well. The reality of work is that we probably spend at least one third of our lives in the workplace. The other third, you should be sleeping and the and the other third is your business, right? But you're spending a lot of time with folks and in the workplace. And it's, it is important to be able to be excited about coming to a place day in and day out and showing up with people that you like and enjoy. And then I think at the end of it, at the end of it all just being in the trenches. As a leader is important as well, right? I think there, there's this balance of being in the weeds and have, somewhat tactical or being tactical enough to feel good about, inspecting what you expect. But then being able to also play or fly at a higher altitude and really help to think strategically about the business and ultimately where you need to go. And I think those things are massively Im important around building teams that, that really show up and want to get after it with you. I have to say Nelson, just the vulnerability and the leadership qualities that you bring to your team, I clearly understand. But I do think that understanding of the micro and how it ties back to the macro is important for leaders because I think that's often where that space of innovation. Really occurs is when you understand the application of how it actually transforms Yes. Business and people. So speaking of that I also wanted to talk about your customer leadership and you have just added so much value to the travel category and your time with the business. And I will re, I will state to you that through Covid, your team was incredible. Incredibly meaningful to me because they were the ones that reached out very early and without any commercial interest whatsoever. Wanted to understand how they could help in whatever way that might be. Yes. And that followership that you've created with your team translates to the followership that you have developed with your customers, and that is part of what. I know you led with that team, but yes, I'm just wondering if there are other components of your customer leadership that you could share with our audience, because I am sure there's a wealth of wisdom that you could bring to the table. Yes, and a couple things come to mind first, right? Look, we all work at companies. We are all like, leaned in on the business. But when you strip the business aside, just for a moment, you gotta understand and recognize. Every business, everything that we do is anchored in people. It's in people and knowing that I think really sets the stage to allow for I think a couple things that are really important, the first of which is one, having empathy to someone else's situation, right? The empathy in many ways. Leads to curiosity. And I think curiosity is also an important thing to have, particularly as it relates to customers. One on, Hey, help me to understand what things are you on the hook to deliver? How are you evaluated in the roles that you are, that you're in? And having a genuine interest in understanding the machinations of that individual's. Position in relative right, and relative and relativity to, to the environment of the corporation that they're in. Secondarily, it is a true and genuine interest in understanding the business objectives and the marketing objectives of your client. It's almost can you imagine being a doctor who just only threw out prescriptions to folks without taking the time to properly Evaluate, diagnose, and then prescribe. I think one of the things that we really try to impress in, in our organization is to make sure you're doing the proper due diligence in, in order to really understand what are the motivations, both of the individual and both of the organization, so that those things can most properly. Tie to solutions that may help them to achieve, to amplify, to accelerate against set objectives. And I think that's really, and those things in my mind, if done properly, are the things that earn you the right, cuz a lot of folks will show up in just what we, we're in a position we should just be able to do what, whatever. You gotta earn the right. To be seen as a trusted partner. And, I am probably ruthlessly prioritized around the goals and objectives of our partners such that my mindset is, will be in generally always will be. And this is not just at my current place of employment. If you do what's right by the partner, you do what's right for the business. And that's been my mindset as a sales professional the entire time it's been that way as a sales manager. And my guess is that it'll probably be one thing I don't I don't back away from in, in the future. I do think that mutual value creation of really understanding individuals and their company in terms of their business needs, because you're right, Google is the dominant player in the space. You represent a big chunk of everyone's media budgets, but that depth of understanding the business and the actual company that you're supporting in that business environment has really distinguished you and your team in amazing ways. Nelson, I know I speak from gratitude because Google always brought us amazing ways for us to outperform in the marketplace and establish against a lot of the goals that we had. So thank you. If I may, I wanna talk a little bit about negotiation because you were with a lot of startups, big risk kind of media brands that had tremendous exposure and visibility in the industry and. Negotiation in terms of bringing some of those products to market and really establishing the right kind of business outcomes for your employer were significant parts of your career journey. Yes. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you prepared to go into those situations, how you were able to ultimately prevail and really bring the right kind of negotiated solution to both parties. Yeah, I'll tell you, it's not too dissimilar to what I just talked about. Doing, doing the due diligence I think is massively important, right? The more you are in tune with the other person on the other side of the table, their, their vision, their mission, what they stand for, and how they're trying to get there ultimately allows for. A better application. If I've got an entire toolbox, I'm, I probably don't need all the tools that are in that toolbox, but there are probably some key tools that I would want to use in an effective manner to, to try to get across the finish line and doing some of those things. But I have to have a very good understanding of the blueprint in what the plan is in order to apply the right tools to, to the right build. And so the notion of due diligence is really important. And in any great partnership, I think there is some level of a symbiotic relationship and a level of sacrifice that is important on, on, on both sa, on both ends, so that you create ownership, you create accountability, right? And and it creates a notion of skin in the game for all those Involved, it becomes less transactional and more about how are we helping each other to build something special. And I think once you get it out of the frame of a mindset or vernacular of a vendor versus a partner and move from a transaction to a partnership. Then that's where I think it becomes a lot more interesting and a lot more impactful. And I think one of the things that made me successful in that is that I never necessarily saw my role being the negotiator at the table as being one that was only solely interested in the media relationship. That was an important aspect of a lot of the negotiations in, in, in my past, but it always was. I, I think where I found a lot of success was trying to figure out where were the opportunities to try to expand to other aspects of the company that I was part of in order to bring or try to figure out what were all the things that we could try to bring to bear that would make this more of a holistic and symbiotic relationship than just the reliance upon a media relationship. I appreciate the way you have really framed up. Professionalism of sales because I do think in today's environment they say, the customer's 80% informed before they come to any kind of business discussion because of just the proliferation and the accessibility of information today. When I hear you talk about that trusted relationship is becoming a business partner, and then it's also that consulting value that you're bringing in terms of really establishing how to solve the customer's needs in a powerful way. And that is why I have so much Personal admiration for really great sales professionals, because I do think that is what really distinguishes them is that they do put the time into due diligence. They really understand the company, they understand the category, they understand what is happening in the broader economy. Yes. And they really try to prepare in terms of sharing ways that business outcomes can really be achieved. So yeah, it is that state of preparation. Yes, your use of the worst the, your use of the word cons consultant or consultative? I think is spot on, right? That to me is like the, the peak of what you strive for as someone who's in the selling business, right? If there are 10 desks at company A and nine are occupied, I wanna be in the 10th desk. And not necessarily because I'm, I am trying to sell you something. It's because I am trying to be part of the conversation, right? I want to be the first call that somebody makes when they're noodling on something. I don't wanna be the recipient of an rfp. I want to help craft the rfp. And it's really that kind of, I think, change in the mindset around really trying to Offer a level of value that that helps to change that dynamic. For sure. For sure. Nelson, I'm just wondering if we could move on to career achievements. Sure. You've shared a few with us as we've been talking, but I'm wondering if there is any particular moment in your career that you are particularly proud of and if you'd be willing to share it. Oh, goodness. Yes. I'll tell you, Dorothy it was, and you talked a little bit about this before, but for me it was how we showed up for partners during the pandemic. And how we showed up for each other during the pandemic. And by that more of a of kind of an internal piece, right? There's both the, there's the external piece and then there's the internal piece. And here, here, the brass taxes, as a leader of a business that was exponentially impacted by the pandemic. It became, IM important to think about how. We make sure that we're managing to the business in the state that the business was, and internally that meant thinking about how we, we resource against the current time. And, being able to try to maintain morale during those, times like that or being able to see that and sometimes the absence to your point of the commercial side of a relationship, that there are still many opportunities to continue to take things at one point in time, may have been on the back burner, but try to move them to the front burner. What are the things, the foundational pieces that we could be trying to put in p place over the course of this time that will ultimately position us? For recovery, which we know at some point will come, but not only the recovery, but be able to accelerate through that recovery. And that's really more of the external side in terms of understanding that the marketing departments in many cases of our partners had been completely, devastated. Yeah. How can we continue to be present? How can we continue to add value? How can we continue to help our partners think about what things would need to be true as they think about the route to readiness? Coming back into an ecosystem which we all, I believed, felt, although it was hard at the time would recover at some point over time. And so being present for my team, And being present for my partners to me is probably one of the things I'm most proud about in my career. Because when I think, and I, if I fast forward down the road, I don't want to be, I. Remembered as a person who, oh, Nelson was a, he drove this amount of revenue, or he, he was very s you know, successful at driving said outcome. The things I believe I would be, I will I will be most proud of. And I think as I think about what does it mean ultimately to have the notion of a legacy will be that Nelson cared about his people. He provided pathways of growth and opportunity for them, but he also cared about his partners in the same exact way, and he was just a good person to to engage and to work with. And if that is, is what people think about or somehow those are the types of feelings that are. Created when they do think about me and I'm long gone, then I've done exactly everything that I was supposed to do. That's so unbelievably Trump's any kind of title or, normal course of, of career accolade that I could ever receive. And yeah, that's, that, that's what matters. I just wanna offer to you, Google was the first call that I took. The day after we had to lay off 70% of our team, and the first call was just about checking in. And the next calls were really about how can we help you prepare for the recovery when the time comes. So yeah, you led your team exceptionally well through that period. Nelson and I for one, and I know I was only one of the many clients at your team outreach to, but it certainly represented all of those values that, that I think reflect on you as an individual that reflected extraordinarily well on Google and certainly I think offered so much leadership value to your team. So I just would like to say thank you for that. Greatly appreciated. Thank you. I'm wondering if I can move on because I know for you you're a type A personality. I know I'm a type A personality. You've had to balance a really demanding career, but I know that your son is extraordinarily important to you. Yes. And I'd like to understand how did you balance some of your work and the life demands and carve out time to be an important parent for your son? Yeah. Oh wow. Goodness. Now I'm gonna try not to get emotional because he is such an unbelievably Just genuinely sweet and kind young man. So let me just start by saying that he's myself and all credit to his mother as well. I think we, we've done a great job in, in, in trying to help him find his own pathway in, in what he's doing now. So that aside but I think it's a lot of things and I, you have remember, the term. You when you're on the plane and they're you're getting ready. And they say, if something were to happen, you've gotta put on your mask before you can put on the mask of someone adjacent to you. And that's because you won't be around if you're not breathing yourself to be able to do any good for anybody else. And so I, I bring that up to say, I think there's a certain amount and a notion. Of having to be extremely centered in your own self care and the awareness of that self care before you can be of assistance and give to others in, in, in the ways that you would like. And so for me, being able to be a, an effective father or present for my son means I gotta make sure I'm taking care of myself and. And that's everything from, I try to work out four or five times a week and some of these aren't significant. 10 minutes is better than nothing, right? But it helps to clear the mind. It helps to clear the conscience and really gives you energy for us, for us to carry on and what we, are all extremely busy lives, right? I try to meditate often, right? Or just get quiet time to myself just to think and to be, and to pause, if you will. I see a therapist every couple weeks. I, I'm a proponent for everyone to have a therapist, someone who's not in your day-to-day, by the way, someone who doesn't necessarily have the solutions, but pros, you. With the right types of questions for you to be on a journey of answering those questions on your own. And then what I, it would be something that I call Al, albeit for me, they can sometimes get blurred a bit just because of the nature of the business. And sometimes you can't always keep things the way you want'em, but try to create boundaries. Hey, maybe you don't answer emails after nine o'clock, right? Or you when just boundaries, right? Of when you're available, when you're not available, when that is your private personal time. Clearly there are exceptions to all of those things, right? That, that come up. But if you try to. Create those things and communicate those things with the people that you work with. And there's generally a respect for trying to maintain those lines. And then, I come back to this notion of fun. What is the thing that, that it is that you do in order to make the moments that you do have with loved ones, all the more special and as it relates to my son, he's a big basketball fan. I'm a big basketball fan and we go to, so we're, Atlanta Hawks. I'm in Atlanta. We try to go to as many games as we can. I'm a season ticket holder. But I will tell you, those are the moments that I relish, right? That I just, I'm that I just simply love because it's our time. Together around a subject, around a topic around an event that we enjoy fully with one another. It brings us joy. It gives us something to talk about and it gives us something to to to bond on. It's that and music actually, for us, it ironically we purposefully shared the same playlist. On on, on our music, the music platform that we use, largely because I want to know what he's listening to, but I also want him to be acknow to acknowledge and respect, and he doesn't have to listen to it there, what is this stuff dad used to listen to? And as a developing he's really into music production. I think that relationship has also opened up his aperture. To think about how he can use different styles of music and different things in his own music. And I think those shared experiences just allow us to open the aperture, but it starts with taking care of yourself because I would be no good to my son unless I did that first. You packed a lot of wisdom into that response, Nelson. I appreciate that because I do think as senior executives, that element of taking care of yourself is critically important to absolutely your wellbeing and your team's wellbeing, but connecting the dots in terms of how. It also is valuable to your family and your son because you were a role model for him as he starts to observe and learn just by watching. Yeah. But I do I'm just so incredibly grateful to have had this opportunity to speak with you today. Nelson, you have been someone I've always. Admired you're just so eloquent and you bring so much thought leadership to everything you do. So it has been a joy for me to have you as a business partner. It's been an honor to interview you today. And I just would also like to encourage our listeners and our viewers that thinking of d e i advisors tagline, empowering personal success. If you enjoyed this interview today with Nelson, I hope you'll go to our website. Because there are other leaders like Nelson, that bring so much wisdom to all of us in terms of how we continue to grow in our careers and our lives. Nelson, thank you so much for spending time with us today, Dorothy, and I hope thank you. And again, you are a North star for me. Thank you. I am honored by the opportunity to spend time with you. Thank you so much, Nelson.