Renie Cavallari, Amazon Bestseller Author and Accomplished Entrepreneur, interviewed by David Kong (Part 2)

In this episode, Amazon best seller author Renie Cavallari discusses lessons learned as she grew her company over the past 26 years, strategies to dump the ugly voices that suck our energy and cause stress, how she survived the pandemic through clarity in her plans, how to work with people with "big lies" and how she helped her clients overcome their struggles and challenges as an executive coach.

Transcript

0:01

This is David Kong, the founder and principal of the DEI advisors. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to personal empowerment.

David Kong: 0:11

We're delighted to have the author of Amazon Best Sell a head Trash Renie Cavallari back to our show. Aside from authoring six books, Reini is also a successful executive coach. Accomplished speaker and co-founder of well known training and development company Aspire. Welcome back Winnie, and thanks for being on our show again. I've known you and Aspire for a very long time. You were co-founder of Aspire 26 years ago, and Aspire is a very different company today because of the leadership. Can you tell us some of the lessons that you learned as you grew your company? Oh

Renie Cavallari: 0:49

boy. Where to begin? I think actually at the beginning when I started Aspire and it was, it's now 27. Our 25th anniversary was the was a 2020 And so all the lessons that I thought I had learned who got all discombobulated. I'm gonna, I'll give you some of the highlights, but I think the single greatest lesson, and actually it was a mentor who told me, Build something you'll love to. And so I looked at the various things that I did I, in my career to that point and said, Okay, we're gonna work on, strategic growth. Cultural alignment within organizations and we know that leadership development is foundational to that, and then training that shifts human behavior and that's it. We're gonna stay in that zone. Over the years, even though I had been a brand strategist, I'd had lots of other experiences and I was very blessed that way that people believed. Because another lesson I can share is that I've never been qualified for any job I've ever had including the one I have today. That you're, you constantly a lesson that my father actually taught me was that when you're stretching, when you have the learner's mindset, you'll never be bored. And like even this evening, I'm going to see a speaker. I know very little about, but I hear great things about, and I'm just going to, what's the one thing I can take? And I think that's also been a really important lesson because when you're learning, you get agile, you don't get stuck. And when you're learning, you can learn from people like you. When we were working with Best Western, we learned together and we, you can then figure out, okay, what's the next best thing we can do and how do we move from here to there? And I think that learning mindset really frees. From a lot of the rules that can quietly take over our brain. So

David Kong: 2:55

true. Having a learning mindset and learning to be agile God knows there's so many things that happen along the way, just so unexpected. You are in fact the CEO of the company, but why did you give yourself the title of Chief Instigation Officer.

Renie Cavallari: 3:10

Yes. Yes, I am the Chief Instigate Instigator Officer, and the real reason was that aspires brand pillars are about literally inspiring, disrupting, and then align. And so it, what we believe is in intelligent disruption, how do we disrupt in an effective way? And I'm that instigator of really, never having grown out of the fifth grade. Why do we do that? Or Is there a better way? Or, I don't understand this. And so it tends to instigate conversation. And the beauty of conversation is that when we're in dialogue together, we always end in a better. As an organization in my own personal relationships that when we can dialogue, things change, but when we're in monologue, we really tend to just believe in what we know. And there's nothing that evolves from just staying stuck in what you. So that's how I ended up being, the chief instigator is that I just drove everyone crazy with, But why

David Kong: 4:20

I love it. I think if you want to be successful, you gotta learn to disrupt and you're such a great listener also. And you always have wonderful dialogues and you learn so much when you're paying attention to other person. And I love that about you. Thank you. At the last show, we had a great discussion about the connected side and disconnected side of our emotional brain, and the connected side obviously gives us peace and happiness and solutions and head trash, which really are those ugly voices that we hear all the time. That inhibits our growth and brings us stress resides in the disconnected side of. Emotional brain now tells, really, when we do get those ugly voices, which we'll get at times telling us things like, we're just not good enough, or It's too hard, what can we do to dump the hatch trash?

Renie Cavallari: 5:17

Yeah. So there's a lot of things we can do things proactively. And then there's also what do we do when we're stuck so proactively we can do things like how do we, start our. We can look at our habits because there's habits that serve us, and then there's habits that don't serve us. And those habits that don't serve us generally set us up to be in the disconnected side of our emotional brain, like staying up late and watching too much TV or Netflix, and you're hooked in and go to sleep and it's one o'clock and you have a 6:00 AM call. You're not gonna be at the same level of peak performance and. What? What we can do proactively decreases our chances of being in the disconnected side, and we should definitely talk a little bit about morning habits today. When we get into that disconnected side and we're just in it and we can hear the tape going, there's three things that we zero in on. The first is take a look at your environ. If your environment is chaotic, if your environment isn't healthy and working for you, you can change your environment. You can change it. The second is you can absolutely understand that who you hang with is who you become. So if I'm hanging with people who are positive and who were helping me solve the problem, then I'm gonna have a whole. Perspective, I'm gonna get to the connected side of my emotional brain faster, so my solutions will be more creative, they'll be easier for me to grab ahold of, versus if I'm hanging with someone who keeps me in the disconnected side. So they're keeping me in the problem. Why did that happen? Who did that to you? What went wrong? Rey like that inadvertently keeps us in the disconnected side. So we wanna look at who are our mentors? Who are our advisor? Who do we hang with on a daily basis? And do they help us get to the connected side of our emotional brain? And sometimes we live with people who are living in the disconnected side of their emotional brain. Then you just have to start to put, that's where the boundaries and the requests come in. Whole different topic for another day. And then the most important thing that we can do is understand the model of own it. Shift it. And so what we have to do first is own it. We have to own, Okay. It's just head trash. I'm in my, I'm in the throes of it, I just start, you're collecting your trash, so to speak, and you can't, you're, you can't let it go. But once you own it and say, okay. This is just, this is about me cuz you understand that you can't control someone else. So this is just about me. Then you can start to do the shift and the shift can be about environment, as I said, or asking for help, but the single greatest shift is looking at the quality of the questions you ask yourself. Because the questions we ask give us answers, and those answers live in our emotional brain, and they're living on one side or the other. So if I ask a question and something goes wrong and I start asking the question, Why did this happen? Who did this? You know what went wrong here? I'm get, I'm, they're called stuck questions. I'm stuck on the disconnected side. But shift questions shift you from the disconnected side to the connected. So one of my favorite shift questions, Who do I wanna be right now? That's a good one. Like I can remember, on, if you go back to a really big day in America in the last year at a half was January 6th. And all, so many things were happening in America on that day. And I remember, like I, I was in such judgment. I was in the disconnected side of my emotional brain and I was stuck. I was like, what is going on and what's happened to America, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and nothing. And I'm watching this TV and it's sucking me in and it's feeding the wrong side of my brain. And then I asked myself this one important question, and it was, Who do I wanna be? That's my go-to question, David, when it's hitting the fan and I'm not like it my best self and every day when that comes up I can go to that question and it brings me over. Cuz who do I wanna be? I don't wanna be a person who's in judgment of others. I wanna be a person who understands a different perspective, right? I wanna be part of the solution. That's a whole different way to experience. It doesn't mean that I'm ignoring what's happening around me, it's just how I'm gonna experience and that shifts me into productive action. So it was decreasing that emotional stress, cuz who do I wanna be? I now have control. And there's nothing that makes people more uncomfortable than feeling like other people are controlling them like that. That fires up well, everybody I know. Let's put it like that. Another like shift question that I love is what's the first thing I can do here to make progress? Because can you see how that just shifts you into progress for but my absolute favorite when I am working with someone, Because when you understand shift questions for yourself, you can use shift questions with others to help shift them out. And this is where the leadership skill of. Own it. Shift it, dump it, that model comes in and that's how can I help you right now?

David Kong: 10:37

I just love everything that you said, and this has been the crux of your book Hat Trash, and this is why I like it so much, and I've read it a couple times now. I like your proactive approach about cultivating a positive mindset and how you start your day. The, what's the word of the day that you give yourself. Cultivating a positive environment and all the proactive things that we can do to avoid hat trash. But when we do get it, you're reactive. Strategies are fantastic too. And I love the shift questions versus the stuck questions cuz so often we just get stuck and we ask, why is this happening to me? And that's not proactive and that's not constructive at all where, whereas a shift questions when you ask right ones, All of a sudden puts you on a constructive path and you can dig yourself out. I just absolutely love that. Love, love that. Thank you. Let's shift gears and talk about the pandemic. I know at Dell, devastating blow to your company, but you develop a plan rather quickly and that puts you it, it's similar to what we're just talking about being reactive and proactive at the same time. and I really liked everything that you did there. There was, I think there were four main points to your strategy. Can you share what you how you survived it and what you did?

Renie Cavallari: 11:57

We, what are the advantages of being close to your customers? And we have about 60% of our business is in hospitality tourism of some kind. So think back March of 20. The only calls I was getting was, please stop all work and how can you help us survive? Like they were the only two questions that I was working with people on for Aspire specifically. And in, by the way, in 25 years, Dave, this was, it was the March 22nd was the like worst day I can think of in my career. It was the first time I'd ever laid people off in 25 years. It was my 25th anniversary. I had a book that had just come out and I, we had this whole plan to celebrate our customers. We were all excited. Our business was on a trajectory of triple growth and we were our foundations. I was proud and ready. And on the 22nd it was, the reality about four or five days before my COO and I sat down and it was like, This is happening and we need to build a resilience plan. What is our resiliency plan? And we did have four elements to our resiliency plan. The other thing that was really important for people to understand that this wasn't just a bad year. This is the first year in 25 years that I lost money. And a lot of it, it was a lot of cash. My own money. You know Your own money. Yeah, my own cash to keep things. And thank goodness I'm a working class kid from Philly. I had saved my money and I had always saved my money. To always have what I feel allows you success is freedom, right? Success to me is defined by free. Like what's my freedom or my freedom is to be able to choose how we're gonna continue to navigate. And of course the first thing we did is we had to, the first strategy we implemented was, what business do we have that we can. Because we did have business in other areas we were diverse enough where some other businesses were able to continue work with us, and we also could look at how are we executing our business. Like we had a lot of business in senior living and they had a sales problem because, Senior living was having a big struggle with Covid. And they needed, their business model doesn't work if they're not running 90% or above. So we knew people are dying. They've gotta, people wanna get in, they've gotta figure this out. And so we went into a real strategy to. To solve business problems for people who still had that need. So it was our revenue strategy. What do we protect and save, and what do we need to transform that we have, how we think differently about what we have? And so we went into a total virtual model. We were up and operating in terms of training virtually on a full virtual platform by May one. It wasn't just Zoom, it was a virtual platform, interactive virtual platform. The second was, what do we need to cut? And so we just started whether of course there were jobs, which, that was the part that was terrible because these weren't people who deserved to be cut. They wouldn't have been there. They were people that it just, we didn't have the business and it wasn't going to come. And so we just started looking at everything and there was no, nothing too small and nothing too large. There were, our senior people took salary cuts. The COO and myself took salary cuts, no. We actually asked people to take a salary cut for 90 days, and then we replenished their salary. We went back the minute we got funds from the government, we made everyone whole again. We did our best to give, time for people to, recover. And we started to then say, Okay, so how do we ensure productivity of those left. And so we started simple things like word of the day and stand up meetings every single day so we could do things together to decrease emotional stress, gain clarity, and ensure productive action. So our people were feeling good because in the thick of the pandemic, at least their work was bringing them a sense of productivity and contribution. And then the fourth, That we zeroed in one on was our give strategy. We've always had a give plan. We've, been donating to organizations that we believe in since the beginning of Aspire. What we really got clear on what is it that we can give to our clients past and present. So we opened it up to even people who were not our current active clients. We did over 500 free executive coaching hours to any executive that had worked with us, past or present, and we did 86 free speeches. And the speeches kept changing. So first it was surviving and then it moved into leading the way forward. And during that time we also the RCI Institute, which is another company I. We started studying, okay, cuz we always have studied how to shift human behavior, but we started studying what are certain leaders doing that are allowing them extraordinary sustainable success over a period of 12 months. And we started watching it. So in June of 2020 we were watching it for an entire year and we could. That there was certain pillars that when they were focused on those six pillars, they were able to align our organization and get the synergy and productivity they needed when they were running so lean, they were gonna they had a perfect excuse to say this is impossible, but they. So the beauty of our gift strategy, which wasn't part of the strategy, is it gave, because it gave us tools to really help people as we went to 2021 when we started to see burnout okay, this is how we help people facilitate what has to happen next. Because without great leaders, David, and you know this, organizations are defined by their culture, but culture is defined by their. How do you lead? That's what defines your success as an organization.

David Kong: 18:18

I've known you for a long time and I know innately us strategists and No, no question. The strategy that you developed to survive and eventually prevail, the pandemic is quite obvious. It's just fantastic. And let's talk about the courage that it took to. To not only the vibe but prevail eventually. What gave you that courage? Ooh.

Renie Cavallari: 18:43

I think courage is it has a whole bunch, a handful of ingredients in it. So a portion of the courage is, was my experience. I had been through the recession, I had been through difficult times. I didn't say I hadn't been through it. One year we made, I literally made$3,000, like I called that a good year. It was a very bad year. But, so I think experience when you are able to self reflect and own the experiences that you've. That is a piece of your courage, cuz you can draw on that knowledge, right? And say this feels like I, there's no controlling the spin of what's happening with Covid. And that was similar to certainly during the recession. There was no, you couldn't control that reality. I think that's one thing. The second thing I would say is that, it was my father who said this, Who you hang with is who you. And so I have been blessed with, I belong to Entrepreneurs Organization, eo, which is a global organization. So they were giving, learning all kinds of zoom learning. My forum itself, I was collaborating and thinking with people. I could also have a space to be mad to just let it loose. And because, my team didn't need me to be freaking out. That wasn't gonna be helpful. But I did need, it wasn't like I was walking around. Yay. Covid. It's gonna go away. Everything's coming back. Like I, I'm not that sun shiny. It had to be, there's a sense of realism and I think realism is another ingredient in courage. You said when you're present in the reality of something, you can gain clarity to it and you can just accept it versus being demanding that it should be some other. And then I think the last part about courage that it is just, Thank you. I think I was just, gifted this upon arrival is tenacity is the commitment to just never stop trying and going and so when you have that kind commitment you're not worried about failing. It doesn't dawn on you. If something's not working, you go, Oh, that didn't work. But you're not so hooked into a certain approach or a certain outcome that it has to be a certain way, and I think tenacity allows you that kind of. Movement where you just keep going and going and and that tenacity has served me my whole life because as I said at the beginning of this program, I haven't been qualified for any job I've ever had But tenacity has fueled the ability to grow into the various responsibilities over time. Yeah.

David Kong: 21:21

The, in our last conversation, Talked about the big lies that we tell ourselves and we have to be introspective and recognize that. And we also briefly touched on the big lies other people tell themselves and that it's helpful to, to recognize the cues. And we all work with difficult people at times and. Sometimes in meetings there are just diverse opinions about different things, and it's helpful to understand why people feel that way. So in terms of these big lies, what are the big lies again, and what are some of the cues that you can pick up in terms of how, Why people say certain things or feel certain way?

Renie Cavallari: 22:01

Yeah. I think once, one of the most important things I think about head trash and the book and our finding is this emotional. And when we understand that a person is just in the disconnected side of their emotional brain and that's why their ego is running them or they're being blind to the reality of something, or they're angry, or they're any of those not so brilliant parts of each of us at, I. Like I live my life plenty of time, unfortunately in the disconnected side, but when I can get my head around that for myself and equally as important that, Oh, this person's in the disconnected side of my emotional brain. For us to make progress, all I have to do is move them to the connected side of the emotional brain. And so that's the first thing. It goes back to you have to own the situation versus judging. Years ago, and you experienced the six pillars of intentional leadership that we aspire had created many years ago. And the third pillar is compassion. And when we draw on compassion for another person, when we're in the disconnected side of our emotional brain, we don't judge. Compassion is the lack of judging another person. And so now we can look at it and not go in. Keep'em stuck in the disconnected side. So that's what we can start to do is look at what is, what's going on for them. It's as simple as they're just in the disconnected side. So that could be anything from feeling anxiety or overwhelming or worry or flat out fear. And so we can continue, we can create the dialogue and that's where things like, So help me understand, what's your biggest concern? That helps a person state it and then you can say, So what are the things we need to do so that you don't have that concern? What would make you feel better about this direction versus, you always say no first. I'm a, I am a My nature. Start with, Yes, go. But there's lots of people in the universe who start with no and eventually get to Yes. And so I've had to learn, Okay, so how do I help them get to, Yes. So the four big lies, by the way, they never change. They're the same, whether they're mine or yours, you only have one. There's no, you don't get all four. You only have one. And from our research, that one doesn't shift, it doesn't change. And that first big lie is I must always be right. So in the disconnected side, remember it, the big lie does not live any in. Both sides of the brain. It only lives in the disconnected side. So help a person feel right about the situation. That's how you solve that. And by the way here's a tip. A person who talks about what's right a lot, they use the word right a lot. They tend to be. What in when they're talking, cuz they'll say it doesn't feel right. The analytics don't say that. They'll be data driven. They're going to prove their point because they have to be right. And they'll use analytics. They'll use a lot of confusion because there's data coming at you because they're right. And if you're confused then you might just give up. But instead of making them wrong, you. You make them. Okay. So your data is really, okay, your data is telling us what, and they say it's saying this, and this, and so where do you see the gap that needs to be closed? That's the question. Versus they, we start challenging the data. I don't think that's right. That might be your data, but my data is all we're doing is now going in to the disconnected side together. Okay. Then you have the, I. Never lose. You're truly right here. And know thy self. And so the, this is honestly when a person, like myself, when my big lie is on fire, I am in the how do I not lose? And I can. So inconsiderate, and I'm not even aware of it. I'm charging forward. And so one of the things that people say around me is, So how can I help you win? What's the win look like? Reini? What do we need to do to get out of this nest reini? And so when we start, see the shift of that question, it moves us out versus. You're in your, I must never, lose mode and it's not looking good on you would be a bad thing to say. So how do we help this person win and how do we, And by the way, the, I must never lose sometimes looks very collaborative cuz they're going around. So what do you think? And what do you think and what do you think? And getting, And they're collecting information, but all they're doing is collecting information because then they're gonna decide how they're not gonna lose, how they're gonna win. And by the way, there's dead people all over the place because they charge forward in the heck with all of you. Oops. Sorry about your. Entire sense of self, I've moved on. And so we have to, again, being aware of it allows us to know what, how to self manage this, not so nice. Special gift. The third big lie is everyone must love me and the everyone must love me can tend to become an enabler because they're, they just want everything. Everything has gotta feel good all the time. It's it's not enough to just. Be comfortable. Like they gotta feel the love. And so negotiations are really hard. And so if they feel a disconnect with you, And so what's important with the, Everybody must love me, is to stay in connection. So you can say something to them that is I really want you to know how much I appreciate the direction you're thinking about. And I wanna share my concern as it relates to the profitability of this direction. Can we explore that? Do you see how to, if you said that to the, I must never lose, they'd be like, What? What are you asking the question for? Let's go. And so it's how we help them move to that connected side. And then lastly, I must always feel comfortable. Great lesson here. The universe gave me a daughter who's an I must always feel comfortable. A husband who's an I must I got the mar everywhere. There's it's, the universe is joke on me. And this is where you have to allow peoples space to feel comfortable. So imagine you're the, I must, never lose and you're charging forward and you don't understand why other people aren't moving as quickly as you. If you're an I must be comfortable, you're not comfortable. And so you've gotta really respect how do I give people space to feel comfortable with this direction or what? Ask the question. So what would make you feel comfortable moving forward that changes everything. I bet, but what would make you feel comfortable moving forward? If you said that to, And I must be right, they'd be like, I don't give a hoot about comfort. You're wrong, So when, and these big lies, we teach really how to utilize these big lies and work with them. in our coaching series in level two coaching. It's really a higher level of coaching and leadership than foundational because of the dynamics. And then final thing I'll say about the big lies is don't tell someone else their big lie ever. And don't bring it up when they're in the disconnected side of their emotional brain telling me I'm in my, I must never lose, is not going to make me go, Oh, thank you for reminding me. not gonna.

David Kong: 29:38

Great advice. I love it. You've been a executive coach for a very long time, and in fact a very respected and sought after executive coach. I know you're very selective about your clients cuz you just can't take on too many more. Now, tell us can you, would you feel comfortable sharing with us some of the challenges and struggles some of the clients might have faced and how you help.

Renie Cavallari: 30:02

Oh I think this I think I could even, speak to those challenges and struggles because I have the same ones. I think that's, there's a lot going on out there. So right now, one of the biggest challenges we're seeing is burnout of our leaders and burnout of the people that report to them, because we had to do so much with so little, and it became a habitual. Use of our adrenaline. And so adrenaline is made for fight and flight, but human beings are not meant to stay in fight and flight. And so this is the result of burnout. And then people, resigned. So we had the great resignation, but they didn't deal with their head trash. They didn't deal with what was actually burning them out. They just shifted jobs. So now we have another, people are leaving again and it's because they didn't deal. What was really going on for them. And so right now actually the R c I Institute we're stu we've just finished a study called The Great Reset, and it's about how to reset your organization and how to reset your own mindset. So because we got a habit of it. So burnout is a huge challenge that we're experiencing. Then the other is we have gotten so busy that some of the things. That are most important. So spending time thinking. I had a boss who once said to me and it wasn't a compliment, I might frame this. He, we had done something, my team had done something and we were very successful and I was standing around waiting for him to say, Thank you, Reini, well done. You and your team did a great job. And he, it wasn't what he said. He said, Reini, I pay you to think the fact that you were think. it just means you're doing your job. Now, he wasn't the most inspiring boss, but what that said to me was really important. And so right now, one of the things that when we're busy, we don't think and prepare, we just move. And our industry, hospitality in general, we're movers cuz we have to, we react a lot because of the nature of the business. And so when we it take time to think and prepare, We have less issues around redundancy. We can decrease errors. These types of costs are also annoyances emotionally. I had somebody, I have somebody who works for me and they're going through a really difficult time in their life right now. It's a difficult time. And so they're making mistakes. They're making errors. It costs money. So I like telling them, Hey, you gotta leave that at home, that's not gonna help them. No kidding, they feel terrible. Like you'd think they don't know. They already know they're making mistakes. It's okay. So what process can we put in place to help you slow it down so that we can feel that, we can eliminate these and you can. That's how we can deal with, the realities that people are going through. And then, I think, so how we onboard people, how we solve our business problems, doing more coaching versus less like finding the time for what matters most. And that's what I ask myself every day, What matters most? What is it that I really, can impact in the most effective way? And when I take time to think about it, I'm always better just hanging out with you today. I did, technically, I wrote a book on this stuff. I shouldn't need to prepare, like it was published. I still take, took the ti, take the time to think about, so what is it that's most important? that can help people. And when you don't do that, in my experience, it raises my emotional stress. Then I don't have clarity, then I can't be productive with others. So when I think understanding also, David, that high stress level that we have that as leaders and influencers it goes out to every. And so when I can get, do things and have experiences in my life, habits in my life, that decrease my emotional stress, now I'm gonna set a different environment for everybody around me. But when I'm going nuts, The tempo will pick up and whatever that's saying, the beatings will occur until everyone's happier or whatever the heck that is and it doesn't work that way. I think one of the biggest things with working with sea level team members is to help them really identify. And what is the real core problem and how can you how can you think about various solutions? And then because cuz they know how to move, they know how to get things done, that's why they're there. But not having the time or someone to be a peer to challenge them in will you say you want this but this is what we're doing, so how are you gonna get that? Cuz it's more of the. This won't work. It's not like it's, oh my gosh, Renie, that was brilliant. It's just someone to think with to go aka, why am I doing that?

David Kong: 35:09

Such great advice. I really appreciate it. Before we go, would you like to share with audience. Any significance with the hat that you're wearing today?

Renie Cavallari: 35:17

To me, kindness is really at the core. When you're in the shift, human behavior business, which is what aspire does, we help people improve their performance. That's it. But you're asking people. To do something out of their comfort zone. And I think that kindness, when we do, when we move from kindness, whether I'm in the grocery store this had a such a engager cuz I'll go to the grocery store and people will be like, Oh man, yeah, I like that. Yeah. But to me, when we can spread kindness and move from kindness, it's the gift that gives back. It's g. When I'm in gratitude, I'm in a great space, and when I'm feeling like I've been ripped off, blah, blah, blah, I'm not in a great space. And it's putting these things out in front of us so that we can shift into them and own them in our life.

David Kong: 36:08

I, I totally agree with you. During the pandemic I always remind myself of three things. One is be safe, obviously and be healthy. And the third one is be kind because there's so much suffering all around us. And being kind actually gives you gratification and peace and joy. I really like what you just said and now with a great reset we also need to be kind. Yeah. Okay. Really thank you so much again. Very much appreciate your time for being on the show and for preparing for the show. I didn't know you, you needed any kind of preparation. thank you again for doing that. I really appreciate it. I think. The audience would find great benefit from your words of wisdom. And thank you to our audience for tuning in as well. Thanks again, Reini. Take your care.

Renie Cavallari: 36:59

Thank you so much, David. Bye.