It's Personal Stories, A Hospitality Podcast

Mit Shah, CEO of Noble Investment Group, interviewed by David Kong

• David Kong

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Mit shares how he led Noble Investment to spectacular success and how he prevailed over challenges, setbacks and disappointments. He offers advice on coaching and mentoring and how he built an admirable culture at Noble. We discuss challenges that women and other underrepresented groups face and Mit offers advice on finding mentors, champions and advocates as well as networking. He also offers thoughts on finding passion and drive.

David Kong:

greetings I'm David Kong, the founder and principal of d e I advisors. We are an Arizona nonprofit organization dedicated to self-empowerment. For today's show, we are very fortunate to have Mit Shah, the founder, and c e o of Noble Investment Group. It's a very big hotel investment and management company. recently MIT was just named as one of Atlanta's most admired CEO e o. So congratulations, MIT and welcome to the

Mit Shah:

show, David. Thank you. It's so nice to see your face and it's a pleasure being with you.

David Kong:

Thanks very much for taking the time to join us. We all know how busy you are. Now, mit I, I know your company has been very successful in the last almost 30 years now, right? 29 30. That you founded a company, you've taken it to spectacular success. So would you mind to share with us your journey and some of the key success factors that contributed to that spectacular

Mit Shah:

success? David, thank you for saying that. I think, when I when I look back and think about my story it is, while it's unique to me it is a story that is shared by many throughout our industry. My parents were immigrants to the United States. My father arrived here in 1964 under the Kennedy Immigration bill. My grandparents were farmers in a small rural town in in Gujarat. Of, of India. And so they did everything they could to get my father on a plane and allow him to go and live his dream here. And and that culminated with my father becoming a PhD and like many that come from different countries here and especially during that time in search of the American Dream my father and with friends and many of them, at that time we're getting into the independent motel business and it became an industry where you saw more and more of those early generation. Indians that had immigrated to the United States, finding their themselves into that business as select service hotels were first starting. You know this so well. That was really a, a watershed time in our industry. That allowed my father the ability to borrow enough money to buy the Winkler Motor Inn in Winston-Salem, North Carolina in 1979. I was 10 years. and and so that was the family business. Every Saturday and Sunday I was working the front desk. I was doing laundry, I was cleaning rooms and and learned very early on. A number of different things, about work ethic about team building and about really the entrepreneurial spirit. Now, in an honest moment when you're that young and that's what you're doing in the family business. It's not what you aspire to go do. And my aspirations were to go into finance and real estate. I had this, amazing ability to learn operations while I was growing. But when I arrived in college, it allowed me the ability to to get a job with Marriott who was running our conference center at at the university. And so for four years while I was in school that's where I continued to hone my operating capability. And I was hired by a investment group out in Atlanta, right outta college. And they were investing in the fir one of the first rounds. Branded Select Service Hotels in in the early 19 nineties. And that gave me the ability and the experience to learn the business in a different way. Six months in the person that led the group left to go start their own shop. And so I am a 20. Two year old kid that were in meetings with Marriott and with Promise Hotels, as the the predecessor entity to to Hilton. Learning about brands, learning about how to build hotels, learning lead, how architectural specifications, how to finance them. And in that time period you could build a select service hotel for$40,000. Us RevPAR, as you remember, was$40. And it was pretty simple math, right? You build these for$40,000 a room, you run$40 RevPAR and you generate enough cash flow that within the first year, not only are you making double digit return on your equity investment, you can refinance your equity out through the permanent market and and then go and do it all over again. So it was a beautiful time in the business and I feel I had a real unfair advantage. I had my. And and as I think back on it, they had their parents and we all wanted our next generation to have dreams and for us to fulfill those dreams. And what my parents did is they refinanced the Winkler motor in and they they gave me a$200,000 loan so I could build my first Hampton Inn in 1993. And that's how the business. right? What an

David Kong:

amazing story. And so inspiring in so many different ways. Your parents come in here to build a better future for you and the rest of the family, and then continuing to be dedicated to helping you out. Loaning you the money that, that entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic that instilled in you and you broaden your horizon getting into different business. There's been segments of the business and taking risk and just so many success factors there that we can all learn from. Just amazing story. Thanks for sharing

Mit Shah:

that. Thank you, David. Thank you. And as I look back on it, that was 29 years. And there's a lot that's happened in those 29 years. And if I think back just on the economic cyclical standpoint, we had a great run. And then in 1998, the Russian financial crisis happened. The Ruba collapsed and the permanent debt market shut down. In 2000, we had the dot combust, which took a big bite out of of travel. And then we have the tragedy of nine 11. And then we've had the great financial crisis, right? And were never gonna be the same. Is remember people were telling us. And then of course this this health crisis that has impacted the globe that, something that we've not seen. And I will say that it, it continues to carry me forward as I think about this business, about how special it is, right? And how strong and durable it has been across all of those time period. But it does really come back to the fact that, people took a chance on me very early and continue to do that today. Yeah.

David Kong:

We're talking about challenges, so certainly all the crises that you mentioned were seemingly insurmountable, and yet you found a way to not only endure it, but actually prevail from it. Can you tell us what is your approach challenges when you face a seemingly insurmountable challenge, what, how do you usually approach

Mit Shah:

that? David, I would say that early on it was it was ingrained in me that part of successful leaders is that they never view themselves as being the smartest person in the room. And, I took it upon myself very early in my career. To reach out to great leaders and to find ways in which to build connections with them. And, these are ones that I admired for many different reasons and in terms of what they meant not only to their companies, but also as I became a young father as I was building my own team and, encourage people to come join me on this journey. A number of different areas, and I would say through every one of these crisis those group of incredible leaders and stewards were invaluable to me in thinking about where we were what opportunities could come out of crisis and what they were thinking and doing at that time. I say this to our team still even today, that everybody should not only have a peer group, but an aspirational. Ones that they really want to be around. And you and I have found ourselves in many of these rooms together across our career and, exactly, those folks that, we keenly paid attention to. And I would say that every step of the way that those were the ones that, that really made a difference. And then I'd also say that those that I was able to successfully bring into the organization over these three decades had the real cap. To not only think and act I'm a big believer that talent is more important than experience. And that, they they came in and I made them owners of the business. And so this executive team that's now been with me over 20 years are all part of the ownership of the business. And and, when they all show up, whether it's, during crisis or it's the time of great prosperity, they're thinking and acting in the best interest of all of our stakeholders. Going back to each one of these situations, all very different. All the decisions unique in many ways. I did lean on this incredible support group that that I have both internally and.

David Kong:

it is so important to have a talented and dedicated team when you're facing challenges and certainly sounds like you built one and you were able to lean on them. And I also like what you said about having the confidence to recognize that you don't have all the answers and. Being open-minded enough to seek those out from experts. That's another great way to face challenge. Thanks for sharing that. Let's talk about setbacks and disappointments. Certainly with all faced out fair share of that. Tell me what are some of the lessons that you've learned?

Mit Shah:

I think we we tell each other and, it's a analogy that that resonates. You're never supposed to get too high. You're never supposed to get too low. And we know this when you're in our industry you have to be an optimist and because it is cyclical and things things do. I had a friend tell me one, one time that as I was really getting into the business to say, this is an industry where it's going to rain, build an arc. And and I thought about that very intently about the team that we built, the relationships that we built. The name on the door, noble is intentional. It, it is to signify, how we are to act and behave when things are good. It's easy to make, decisions that resonate across all your stakeholders. When things get tough, that's really where it matters. And I would say that when times of difficulty came about, I learned a. Throughout all of those things I learned how important it is to be disciplined around investment strategy. The kinds of assets and the kinds of markets lower leverage. Most, a lot of people in our industry use leverage as a way in which to generate returns. I think when you're a prudently leveraged you have real staying. In in that, and and so there's a lot that I learned throughout those time periods. And it's a beautiful business. And it's a, and it's an industry full of great people that that, I did learn throughout every one of these crises that together there's a great opportunity to find what that next opportunity coming out of crisis is. So I'll give you an example. Coming out of the, the.com business and the crisis and then the tragedy of nine 11. We bought Dick Storm's development business where they had had a great name and a, and built a business around public-private developments where municipals, they would work with municipalities and go and create new hotels that allowed for us to go build a pipeline. In 2011, we had a, we had over a hundred hotels. We had 4,000 members of our team, and I found us being really distract. By the amount of effort and energy you had to have to build an operating organization that, could create value as well as an investment organiz. So we ended up doing a deal with interstate hotels now Abridge, where we sold them our management business. And we, I, when, in October 31st, 2011, we had over a hundred members of our team in our office on November 1st. I sat in a room and there were 24 people there. Wow. And we we have expanded our investment management business fivefold in that time. We've made over five, billion dollars of investments since that time. And and then because. Of how we structured our operating organization. We actually have moved our market share up each year over that time period cuz we're able to focus on people and processes. And that was, again, 11 years ago in which to do that. So every step of the way when we found crisis, there's been a unique opportunity. To come out of that. And as earlier this year we sold 49% of our investment management business to host. And what that really gave us, they, they invested 150 million in our most recent fund noble Fund five. And their goal is to continue to. In new ways to create value in this business. So traditional ways, we've got we've got through select service center stay future ways, whether it be through PropTech or through alternative lodging, or a variety of different things. The combination of our efforts led us to that. And that too came out of crisis because you're thinking about what's the next, manifestation of the industry and how can we be at the forefront of. Wow.

David Kong:

such wonderful stories of how you found opportunities as a result of a crisis. Just wonderful to hear you talk about all that. And also some of the lessons that you shared about having a right perspective, recognizing that the business is cyclical and to expect a downturn and prepare for the rainy day in advance. All those things are just such wonderful lessons. Thanks so much for sharing that. Thank you, Dave. Now in the last 29, 30 years, you've acquired over 5 billion in assets in our industry. And certainly you've also developed some fabulous talent. And you've been known to be a great mentor to many people. Can you share some advice on coaching and mentoring?

Mit Shah:

Sure. I think it, it continues to be a work in progress for all of us, right? I'll go back to a comment that I made about my about my parents and their parents, and hopefully all of us as we think about, the most important thing that we do is to actually be a parent, right? And that is to help others find their dreams and then to achieve their dreams. And I've taken the same approach internally. With our team and there are those special leaders that wanna be a part of something that's bigger than themselves. We can identify them, pretty easily. And you've seen them throughout your career. I've been fortunate to be able to ha have that kind of team here with us at Noble. And then, one, one of the things in talking about what are their dreams, their dreams, like the rest of us are multi face. They are professional and financial and but also you know who they are as human beings as parents, as spouses and alike and then philanthropically. So we've taken each of those components and we've tried to build an organization. That really does have an impact across all of those different areas. And because of the size of our organization, we can build these incredible familial relationships. We can. I can have one-on-ones with our team. On, on a regular basis. I, there are touch bases and and we can talk about things that are outside the norm of business and have these very thoughtful discussions around, what is it that they want to accomplish for themselves professionally, financially, and personally. And how do we. Each of, members of our team. And this is not just me having conversations, with, with a group of folks. It's our senior team as they continue to grow and develop. I've I've been a big investor in external development and because we have so many people that have been with US for so long having outside perspectives being on other companies boards, seeing how other CEOs work with their teams, how boards, work to develop strategy. I've I've invested in personal coaching and and development with with with our team as well. We have upped the regular. Of our review conversations where, it's multi-pronged in terms of the different folks that you know, that provide feedback. But at the, but really at the heart of it, David, I would say we've been very successful at being able to attract very good human beings that deeply care about us as a. and that there's a very selfless quality about them. That they're driven, they're hard charging. They wanna win, they wanna, be, compensated for winning, but they also want to do well by others and they wanna make a real difference. And so through the different prongs of our of our. And how we think about, really what, you're making this next journey or career a big part of, in terms of social responsibility in terms of, real ability to make an impact on diver first group of leaders. In 93, when we came up with the business and we named it Noble, it was. And there were not metrics around the things that, all really matter other than financial metrics. But we knew that there was an opportunity to do something that was valuable to all of our stakeholders and bring a group together that could succeed. I'm blown away that we're here 29 years later about to start our 30th year. I, my goal was to go build a few Hampton Inns and and now here we are with with an organization that I really believe is built to last, but it's because of the commitment of those that came on at various different times that has continued to enhance the flywheel of our. On our communities, on our people and you know this as well, our investors in our funds, they are the some of the very most prolific state pension plans where their beneficiaries are law enforcement, fire providers and lifesaving providers and school teachers. And then they're also university endow. Where this is, financial means for kids to go to college, the direct beneficiary of the work that we do really matters. And and I would say that those people that we've been able to attract really get that right. At the end of the day, we when we do well, there's a lot of folks that do well. I

David Kong:

applaud you for your commitment to people. It's no wonder you built such a winning culture, and I really like what you said about living up to your namesake noble and using that as like your personal brand and instilling that value in everyone. That's just remarkable. So let's, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this would want to come and work for Noble Now because you've been such a great leader. Can you comment on your leadership style and share with us some of the keys to winning that to building that winning culture?

Mit Shah:

I hope that my my team would say that my leadership style is one where, we don't have meetings simply to. Plan for meetings. Whe when we are together we are we have robust dialogue. I'll go back. Even during Covid we sh we told everybody, hey, on March the 18th everybody needs to go back home. We had the vast majority of our folks that never. Because they enjoyed being with one another. It was a very different environment. Now, by the way, where you live has a lot to do with that. And we lived in in, in, obviously in Atlanta, Georgia, which our, our situation was a little different and unique than in some parts of the country and in the world. But it goes back to that our team felt like they were at their best when they were together. And to this day our teams get together on on, on a regular basis with me and without me. And that's intentional relative to my leadership style. We talk about goal setting. I'm in the details. I love the details. But my team takes, that for me and they really work well together across all disciplines. So we've got asset management investments, capital markets, development, finance, and I've got a partner and a leader that runs each of those groups. And those leaders, they go and they work together and they come to me and bring so I think every leader of any firm or any entity hopes that when there's a decision to make members of their team will come in and they'll say, here's the data, here's the information, here's how we've thought about it and here's how we believe we should proceed forward. And allowing you to think through their lens because of there's one built on trust and and that's how decisions get. I'm very fortunate because of so much time that's been spent together and so much crises that we've been through together as a team. And I remember their conversations and David, I'm sure this feels like yesterday where we all make, do our budgets every year and we think about what happens if RevPAR is down 5% or maybe 10? Never before did we ever say, what happens if Repar is down 60, 70%? Never before did you actually have to think about questions like you keep a hotel open or not. And I go back to some of those very dynamic, difficult times and it was that team that came together knowing the answers that we had to find amongst us to bring to me. They would tell you I'm responsible for keeping the trains going on. To making sure that we're fundraising and and deploying capital. I chair our investment committee. I am in, involved in every aspect of our business, but I'm very fortunate to be able to empower those leaders to run those business units. But I ha I'm, I'll tell you why. I'm actually fortunate and why I can say that because each one of those leaders are owners of the business, so they act like owners. And they treat this company and our strategies like owners. And the second is they're very talented and they've been with me for a long time. And so when you combine all of those together it's like it's like a great sports team that, that you have together, people come from different walks of life different town, different skillsets but they found an incredible way to work together. And my job is to make sure that we continue to build on that because my next. Phase of this is that we are now hiring, the 20 year olds that that I brought on 20 years 20 plus years ago, are now in their mid to late forties. I've had three senior people retire already. It's amazing. Oh, wow. And so now we're bringing on this next group of of diverse and talented leaders. And so our, my, our really big goal is us as a collective. Con instilling that into this next generation of noble leaders. That

David Kong:

sounds so wonderful. And I really like what you said about hiring the right people, basically empowering them, and also giving them a stake in the game. And you set up this virtuous circle that is gonna just propel you forward. And that's the basis of a winning culture. That's, thanks for sharing.

Mit Shah:

Yeah, David, you, I'll make one comment. It's interesting cuz if anybody heard just that one soundbite, go hire great people and empower them, right? That sounds like you could open up any business book and that's what somebody would say, right? Because it's totally obvious. I think there is a big layer that you know, that if I look. I'm so thankful that I was encouraged to do that, which is not just find the right people and empower them because you only can empower'em if you trust them. And you believe in them, and they believe in you. And I believe a real key in that was how we aligned compensation and ownership in this business. And, I say this a lot of times to our next generat. Of of hotelier and especially in the Asian American community that you know, I, I always thought that a smaller size of a much bigger pie was a lot more exciting than having a larger part of a smaller. and you know these journeys in life, you don't go through it alone. You always go through it to have a real meaning. You go through it with other people. So the key aspect I think of all of that were those people that came on because, they could then be an owner of of a business that they too could call their own. I

David Kong:

really like that because empowerment is self fulfill. It is fulfilling in so many ways. giving them a stake in the game and giving them equity is actually engagement. You basically engage them. That's that's outstanding advice. Thanks very much for sharing that. Now, switching gears I remember, I think about 18, 20 years ago at the America's Lodging Investment Summit. We were invited to be on a game show and the two of us were labeled the newcomers, It was a challenge. We were challenging the old timers. Yeah. So how time flies? How time. How time flies. So looking back, if you were to give advice to your younger self, like 18 years ago you've already been the CEO for 10 years at that point. What is your advice to your younger.

Mit Shah:

There's so much David and we do this as as as parents all the time that, there's, we grapple with how much do you have to learn on your own versus the advice that we wanna share and the learnings that we wanna share to to our children. And while I'm tempted to wanna write the story and the path and say, Hey, do this and don't do that and do this, and and the I think the journey of both success and setbacks has allowed me to think about not just being a a better leader here at Noble but hopefully a better. Because I've, I've developed the ability to listen better to have empathy. The decision that I, that was made to sell the management business. I had nine direct reports in 2011. My children at the time were 13 and nine. I was able to make every event after that, end up af When we saw the management business, I ended up with two direct reports. And again, remember, I, we've increased the investment business fivefold. In that time. I made every event after that. All of these things that took place at various times I think has allowed me to see my life and how I would like for it to matter to those that are. A lot more clearly. And so I think that advice to my younger self would be respect the name on the door that, we created as noble and what that should mean. Continue to build people around you so that you're never the smartest person in the room, and continue to find ways to help others achieve their. And in turn, yours will manifest from that as well. And I feel very fortunate that there's been more success than setbacks, for us. Because that's what, we tried to endeavor at the beginning. And that's, I think what's a testament to where we are today. Now, I would also say I would've made some pretty dramatic decisions in terms of investment strateg. My goal was and you'll laugh at this, that when we started out, I was, I wanted to build three Hampton Inns. If I would've listened to my friend Bruce White who built a hundred Marriott Courtyards, I should have just built a hundred Hampton Inns. And but the journey has been, I, I don't see this as work. We spend more time in, in many ways with those that are around us here professionally than we do. On a personal level. And these incredible leaders here at Noble, they're my sisters and brothers. They're, we are, we are locked at the hip. And so it's been very fulfilling. And I think the advice is really make sure that you just continue to pay attention to the things that. I

David Kong:

totally agree with you and Ella, love everything that you said. I particularly living up to the namesake Noble, cuz that says it all really. You picked a perfect name. Thank you. Like that a lot. Let's switch gears and talk about the challenges that women and other minorities phase obviously. face a lot of challenges. There aren't enough of us to represent to have a fair representation, especially in the executive level positions. What is your advice to them on finding mentors and advocates and champions?

Mit Shah:

They you and I represent I think a changing face of this industry 20 years ago. And. And I felt very proud to have those that walked different paths that enabled my path to to get started. And I know you feel the same. I think what's happening as we, speak right here today, I is, there is a significant movement around those that look differently than us come from different back. That are finding their way into new roles in our industry. You should be very proud of what you represent for an entire generation of those that look, very differently than you did and what you created within this industry. And and now there's a path for those to follow through. I think, for our next generation of incredible women leaders and diverse leaders they have more mentors and role models and stories that they can they can look at and find their pathway in. And it's happening very much in real. I've one of my, greatest most proudest moments is being a part of Castell Project. And, at the Hunter Conference in Atlanta in March last year, there were a handful of tables, for, for the Castell project with these great women leaders that we're taking incredible roles in our industry this year. There were three times as many tables, and there were standing room only, and you had 20% of those that were standing were men in our industry wanting to figure out how to how to be a part of this incredibly vibrant group. And and so I think it's happening. And so in terms of advice of finding mentors, champions and advocates it's very much like. It is, get outside your, normative peer groups. Find your aspirational peer groups. Make relationships, show up at conferences meet with different people. Pay attention to what's happening in the industry and when there are times you know, of great prosperity, keep those people close when there's times of great need. Keep'em even. and when you're thinking about just continued career growth and evolution use them as advocates for you in which to do that. And I'm actually super optimistic because I see the talent that exists in our industry that looks very different than it has over. and this is a, this is an industry, as I talked about earlier, full of optimists. And if you're an optimist you always believe you're, tomorrow's gonna be a better day. And what you do with that is entirely up to you. And I'm super excited about the future of diverse leaders in our industry of women leaders in our industry of women and diverse leaders in, in our company. Over. Of Noble. And and again, we don't, this is not, we don't operate in hotels. This is in our corporate office. Over half of us are women leaders and diverse leaders that exist here. And it's it's an, it's been an interesting journey of enlightenment for everyone. Because, you know what, how we define diversity is diversity of thought and idea creation and perspective, and where you come. And I believe that just makes us, a better organization.

David Kong:

Yeah. When you think about diversity and inclusion, it's really about the thought, right? Not just the person. Yep. I like everything that you said, and certainly the industry is making tremendous progress just in the last couple of years. Just look around you. It's changed a lot, which is very exciting to see. Let's talk about sometimes women and minorities may feel like they don't. If you were a woman sitting in a room full of men and you're the only woman there you're gonna feel uncomfortable. So what's your advice on helping people feel more at ease and feeling more confident?

Mit Shah:

I believe it starts with just authenticity. You are who you are. Don't try to be somebody different. And we've all been in rooms where we haven't felt entirely. I still, I find myself in rooms where, I look very different than those that you know, that, that are in there. I'll give you an example. I went to Wake Forest University in North Carolina. The time that I went there, I was one of three brown kids on campus. It was a school that was deeply rooted in the Southern Baptist Church on. And I went there because they gave me an opportunity to play tennis, which was very important at a time that was there. And my parents took out loans for what, financial aid would not cover. And there was nobody really that I interacted with that came for where I came from, prayed where I prayed, had my background and. So this is now my 17th year as a trustee at Wake Forest University. And where I've been vice chair twice, I chair our investment committee. And we have a Hindu Student Association, Muslim Student Association, south Asian Student Association. We have an Indian dance team. And so I say all of those things because when I joined this industry, Asian Americans were viewed as those that owned the Winkler motor in and not, a institutional real estate, private equity firm. And there was a path that could have been created that I got to be there early in that process and forge my, my own way along with others that were like me. In that, in that time, and run to the fire, right? I feel like the best experiences are when it's hard and I say this, spend time in the valley cuz the mountain will look a lot better when you get I love that.

David Kong:

Love that

Mit Shah:

you grow and Yeah. And just and be okay being uncom. Because you'll find a path that you can help trailblaze and and it's happening. And I think you and I are living proof that that it can happen.

David Kong:

Yeah. I love it. I love everything that you said and I especially like what you said about running to the fire. You've been a shell blazer and you've been running to the fire. We're coming to the end of our shell. I see that we're running over a little bit. Can you share as a parting advice how you find inspiration? Because I see you as a very passionate and driven person, and is this something that's innate in you, or can everyone find that inspiration and passion?

Mit Shah:

We, I appreciate you saying that, David. I think I love very much not only what I do, but who I do it with and I've been very fortunate. An incredible partner in life for 27 years and, two adult children now and a broader family here at No. That helps keep me grounded and excited about, all of those things. I, I think, I think about life in kind of the pursuit of joy whenever I'm talking to, to people. It's, what gives you great joy in life? And I think the only moment that we're ever all guaranteed is the one that we're in today. And and, so inspiration and passion for me today. Is is around the key areas that we talked about, right? Finding other people's dreams, helping them accomplish their own. I think much like you, we're an age right now where, we're seeing people that we're close to go through real, difficulty in terms of health and wellness and and we lost, some great, leaders as well. And I can't help but think. This conversation about finding inspiration and passion that you just asked me about and talking to all of them because everybody had a five year plan. We all do, right? You say that, I said, okay the next five years, here's what I want to go do. And I've become more focused on, what gives those that I care about and those around me great joy and therefore provides me great. And I'm very focused on, on that being the case. Now, if you're early in your career and, you've gotta do a lot of tough things and really get after it to build your career, this might seem a little obtuse, right? Okay, I gotta go to work, I have to go do this, et cetera. But I, I would say that, when you tell people to find their passion, most people are passionate about stuff that they're good. I found just figure out what you're really good at. You'll be passionate about it. Whether it's playing the violin or it's, investing in hotels, it you'll do that. And then inspiration to me is really around those people who I think are really getting it right. And as I grew my career, it started those, the people that were in business that I wanted to follow. Those people that who I thought were great, father. To the great leader, to CEOs and took care of their people. So it's the same people I continue to find inspiration and passion with today. But, I also would just say that finding joy in others is a great way to find joy for yourself.

David Kong:

That's such great advice. Such great advice, man. I feel like I can talk to you forever, but regrettably, we're coming to the end of the show, Very welcome. Hope to have you back at some point in the future. Thanks. Thanks again for being so generous with your time. We all know how busy you are. For the audience tuning in, if you enjoy this show, we hope to see you on our website, d ei advisors.org. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thanks again, Matt. Thank you, David. Talk to you soon.